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is right to call the 5bet jam here?

    • stttNNN
      Joined: 21.07.2010 Posts: 1,333
      The guy is a regular and he is 3beting alot against me. I take the chance to 4bet and with the mind to go borke if he 5bets me. Do u guys think this play is EV+?

      EDIT: I am playing on a swedish site, the stake is not /2 $ its like NL25$

      $1/$2 No Limit Holdem
      3 Players
      Hand Conversion Powered by

      BTN stttNNN ($208.95) 104bb
      SB j0ke ($411.31) 206bb
      BB Lepidus ($428.39) 214bb

      Pre-Flop: ($3, 3 players) stttNNN is BTN 10:spade: 10:heart:
      stttNNN raises to $5.75, j0ke raises to $19.25, Lepidus folds, stttNNN raises to $50, j0ke goes all-in $411.31, stttNNN goes all-in $208.95

      Flop: 3:heart: 8:club: 5:club: ($419.90, 2 players, 2 all-in)

      Turn: 9:heart: ($409.41, 2 players, 2 all-in)

      River: Q:diamond: ($409.41, 2 players, 2 all-in)

      Final Pot: $409.41
      j0ke shows
      K:diamond: A:diamond:
      stttNNN shows
      10:spade: 10:heart:

      stttNNN wins $409.41 (net +$200.46)

      j0ke lost $411.31
  • 7 replies
    • mkjmkjmkj
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 159
      hard to say without stats but in most situiations i think the overall play is plus +ev vs reg
      its never a huge mistake.
      it depends a lot if he 5bets JJ or not

      if he 3bets 8.5 or more and 5bets QQ+ AK blind vs button it is +EV

      if he 3bets 10.5 or more and 5bets with JJ+ AK blind vs button it is +EV

      this is with the added fold equity

      else you need about 37.5 equity to call so you need him 5bet bluff some hands to make the call +ev so if he he also 5bets AQ the call is +ev
    • jonnyjm
      Joined: 24.03.2008 Posts: 447
      Well not necessarily....Just because villain is 3 betting you a tone doesn't mean his 5 bet range will be as wide. Especially if you fold to 3bets frequently he'd probably fold vs your 4bet with out a big hand, if that's the case 10-10 likely wouldn't be in good shape vs his 5bet. Any stats on his "fold to 4 bet"?
    • elchipriota
      Joined: 06.06.2012 Posts: 438
      The more important stats to look there is his fold to 4bet imo.

      If we see that villain is folding 90% when we 4bet it means his 5betting range will be less than 10% (remember he will call some times).

      Just to give you an indication.

      If he is 5betting his 5.88% of his range that is AJoff+ TT+ and with your pocket tens you have a 43.8% equity in the hand

      If he is 5betting JJ+ AKoff+ that is around 3% of his range and gives you an equity of 33.45%.

      Now do we feel he might be including some bluffs in that range or will he solely do it for value?

      Imo it comes down to analyzing his overall stats. If you feel that AK can be at the bottom of his rang then maybe that might be a fold. If you feel he can have some AQ and AJ there as a bluff you might me putting your money good in.
    • Vygantas82
      Joined: 02.04.2010 Posts: 364
      That only depends from your 4bet range and his 4b/5bet range. many players 3bets lite its normal in modern poker but that doesn't mean he 4b/5b ligt too. If you only 4bet premium hands any reg on those limits will never 5 bet bluff against you + he will always be able to play against you almost perfectly. to 4bet/go broke with TT you really need to have good reads on oponent and big sample off hand history, obviosly not 100 or 300 hands. Also good reg if he 4bets/5bets as bluff he is trying to do it with broadways like KJ KQ AT etc(blockers) so TT pretty often just flipping. Without reads i would better call in position for low flop or set, or any other things according to your reads or hand history, or 4bet/fold (out of position that's the only choice)
    • jonnyjm
      Joined: 24.03.2008 Posts: 447
      Originally posted by elchipriota

      If he is 5betting his 5.88% of his range that is AJoff+ TT+ and with your pocket tens you have a 43.8% equity in the hand

      This is incorrect...If he is 5betting 5.88% this will be 5.88% of his 3bet range not his total range. So if his 3bet range is say 10% he is actually only 5betting about 0.6% of his total range. Even if his 5bet is 100% he would only be 5betting a range of 10%....
    • elchipriota
      Joined: 06.06.2012 Posts: 438
      Yes you are correct. We are actually saying the same thing.

      I am not talking about the value you get on your HUD but the actual % from the overall range he can be playing.
    • w34z3l
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,331
      Unless you think he is going to be 5bet jamming wide (chances are he isn't), flatting in position is going to be a way better option.

      If he's folding enough to 4bets, the 4bet might show a profit in itself, but you are basically turning TT into a bluff.

      It's one thing to run the math and say "hey, I'm comitted against his jamming range now (which dominates me) because I 4bet", but if you know he's not 5betting light or flatting 4bet light, you shouldn't put yourself in this situation in the first place (where you have to call all your chips off as a dog vs his range.) Just 4bet/fold the K7 instead, and play TT IP in 3bet pot ahead of his range.

      If you think he's gonna ship smaller pockets and Axs, then whatever, well played. 25nl, I'm guessing this is not the case.