[NL20-NL50] NL25 - 67s: draw vs donkey

    • Lunitis
      Lunitis
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 20,136
      BU: 24/18
      39% steal BU
      56% fold vs 3bet
      66% cbet (65% 3way)
      3.3k hands

      BB: 39/10/1.8af
      3.3% 3bet
      45% fold vs cbet
      11% raise cbet
      47% wwsf
      1.4k hands


      MP: $26.55 (106.2 bb)
      CO: $12.89 (51.6 bb)
      BTN: $32.23 (128.9 bb)
      Hero (SB): $51.47 (205.9 bb)
      BB: $30.58 (122.3 bb)
      UTG: $25.35 (101.4 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 6:club: 7:club:
      3 folds, BTN raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.65, BB calls $0.50

      Flop: ($2.25) 5:spade: 8:spade: 5:heart: (3 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks, BTN bets $1, Hero raises to $3, BB raises to $6, BTN folds, Hero ?

      Odds are tempting, but....there might be some nasty reversed odds... :evil:
  • 12 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Why do you call preflop? Your hand is weak and you will get BB into the pot just about everytime he has a better hand than yours. If you're thinking good hand multiway, give it a second thought: you have 7 high OOP in a 3way pot against a BU range (all suited cards) and loose BB caller (all suited cards). Your 76s becomes closer to 76o and you don't have position nor initiative.

      In other words, you don't have position, you don't have initiative and you don't have the better hand. How are you going to make money?

      I think this is a 3bet or fold preflop. It could potentially be a call in BB because you would be in a HU pot.

      As played, I prefer leading flop to get people to fold some 22-44 hands, better potential to barrel people off flushdraws with better showdown value, can make people fold random overcards. The check/raise is really thin. BU doesn't bluff as often 3way and also he is BU, he hits that board quite often, I doubt you have enough FE against him when he bets. When BB 3bets it's just a snap fold, your odds aren't really good enough because you are drawing dead too often and your outs are never clean.
    • Lunitis
      Lunitis
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 20,136
      Thank you.
      The call was to play a multiway pot with a donkey. We were all at least 120bbs deep too. Was the reason to flat.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by Lunitis
      Thank you.
      The call was to play a multiway pot with a donkey. We were all at least 120bbs deep too. Was the reason to flat.
      It would be a valid reason if you had other conditions on your side. Think about why you don't play T2o against a bad player, or J4o. They aren't good enough. 76s is usually good enough but now think of other factors I mentioned initially. Position matter A LOT. Position allows you to win an extremely high percentage when everybody misses in a multiway pot because people are honest. The opposite goes when you are OOP and multiway. You rely on hitting to win and your hand doesn't hit THAT well multiway. Not saying it never wins but it has to win quite often on average.
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
      Silver
      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,003
      i would love the raise if you were IP as a semi bluff and with at least 1Spade card. other than that i think your just bloating the pot oop with a bad hand.

      i would have to disagree with EmanuelC16 3bet / fold line pre here, because BU has very low fold to 3bet plus the bb could come along and potentially bloat a pot with a marginal hand oop.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by Phgrinder
      i would have to disagree with EmanuelC16 3bet / fold line pre here, because BU has very low fold to 3bet plus the bb could come along and potentially bloat a pot with a marginal hand oop.
      Low fold to 3bet means he will call weak => we can barrel wider.
      BB coming along is less likely vs a 3bet than vs a call=> we isolate BU.
      Pot being bigger when we are OOP => less streets to play, position counts less.

      The deeper the stacks the more streets you play and thus positional advantage increases. The lower the SPR, the less BU can use his position here.
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
      Silver
      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,003
      but this just means we cbet a good percentage of the time on the flop and give up or stack off on the turn with air on most flops which is essentially burning money right?

      if we are advocating light 3bets here, we can definitely 3bet fold junk hands here but 67s has somewhat of a value and to turn it into a bluff postflop to get him to fold most the hands he defends and us being oop is just purely unprofitable in the long run?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by Phgrinder
      but this just means we cbet a good percentage of the time on the flop and give up or stack off on the turn with air on most flops which is essentially burning money right?

      if we are advocating light 3bets here, we can definitely 3bet fold junk hands here but 67s has somewhat of a value and to turn it into a bluff postflop to get him to fold most the hands he defends and us being oop is just purely unprofitable in the long run?
      We can't 3bet trash because he calls. We can 3bet playable hands even though he doesn't fold directly to the 3bet because the plan is to make him fold later (if we can ever do that, if not we don't 3bet). Also, there's more to postflop than cbetting. We don't cbet bad flops for us or flops we cannot barrel. Weighing pot equity + folding equity comes by correctly assessing opponent's range so that requires experience. However, you cannot gain experience if you never do it.
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
      Silver
      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,003
      so for this particular spot you prefer 3betting 67s over for value oop over someone who rarely folds to 3bet adn cbet only boards that connect and just c / f flop or later streets if we miss?

      isn't that still going to be burning money in the long run?

      i can see an argument with 67s being 3bet for value over villain if hero was IP.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      If I know his postflop leaks I prefer 3betting. If not, for me it's a fold.

      It's rare that I can't find a 3bet with the hand against someone that defends such a wide range. Wide range = weak range so it's about knowing when you can take it down.

      I didn't say we cbet only when we hit. It's more complex than that, it involves villain's range more than ours. We just need a little equity to not be drawing dead.
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
      Silver
      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,003
      ok thanks for clarifying. hope i can get in more experience like everyone here.
    • Lunitis
      Lunitis
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 20,136
      And here that we have position with a donkey in the hand:


      SB: $34.17 (136.7 bb)
      BB: $10 (40 bb)
      UTG: $15.28 (61.1 bb)
      MP: $22.60 (90.4 bb)
      CO: $45.28 (181.1 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $25.15 (100.6 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with 5:diamond: 6:diamond:
      UTG raises to $0.62, MP calls $0.62, CO folds, Hero ?

      UTG 20/14
      13% OR UTG
      64% fold vs 3bet (4/10 utg)
      68% cbet flop
      60% cbet turn
      3.4k hands

      MP 53/19
      1.5k hands

      SB and: regs 25/24 both with 7% squeeze.


      Fold/call/3bet?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Calling becomes an option here, having position. They are quite short though so you have to keep in mind that you win less when you hit your hand. Being IP you can maximize what you win when you hit but you can't win more than what is in play.

      I would personally fold and call probably 78s+ for suited connectors since flopping a pair gets me to showdown a lot more with that, while with 65s you rely almost only on OESD and FD.