Aggression post flop stats

    • maheepsangari
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Read this in another forum about AF and Agg freq, do you think this is right?

      -------------------- AggrFreq% ---- AggrFact
      hyper aggressive.... > 70
      over aggressive....... 60 - 70 ........ > 3
      aggressive.............. 45 - 60 ........ 1.3 - 3
      passive.................. 35 - 45 ........ < 1.3
      calling station......... < 35

      I'm currently playing 20/17 AF 2.58 Agg Freq 28% at NL 10. Am I a station according to my Agg freq?

      Flop 30.8%
      Turn 28.5%
      River 19.3%
  • 3 replies
    • DrDunne
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,378
      hey maheep :)

      i'm playing nl10 too and have been reading about AF and Afq recently...

      basically i've removed AF from my HUD now because i believe it to be thoroughly misleading! as you probably know, AF = (bets% + raises%) / calls%. and so this doesn't take into account the percentage of checks and folds made by the player in question. Afq = (bets + raises) / (bets + raises + checks + calls + folds). the problem is that AF is calculated alongside VPIP and so someone with a VPIP of 70 might have a "passive" AF, but actually it isn't passive at all. similarly someone with a VPIP of 18 might have an extremely high AF leading you to believe they have many bluffs, when really they are just betting whenever they have it - which is often because they are so tight.

      i have heard numerous experienced players explaining how bad AF is and i've very often leveled myself into calling someone down because of a high AF - it never worked out. it also makes me question whether or not we are also levelling ourselves into folding whenever we are faced with action by a "passive" player who may well not be all that passive at all.

      i try not to put too much emphasis into stats now and so i'm not too knowledgeable with them. maybe someone more experienced can jump in and explain the pros and cons of these stats and even how best to use them :)

      about the AFs you listed, id say...
      aggressive....2.8 - 4
      passive........1 - 2.8
      big station....<1

      and i can't really talk much about Afq because i've only just started using it. i would say ~35 is standard aggressive but meh.

      i was going to create a thread about this myself and would really like to see some discussion :)

    • maheepsangari
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Hi, thanks for the reply. I'm hoping a nice discussion starts too.

      You said you've removed AF from your HUD and that you don't really seem too interested in Agg freq either.

      So how do you determine if someone is aggressive or passive and to what degree? Just use C-bet and fold to C-bet stats?

      I was thinking about the forumla after I posted and I think my AF on the higher side and Agg Freq on the lower side might mean I fold a lot meaning I play rather bet or fold kinda game. What do you think?
    • Lucker9200
      Joined: 18.06.2010 Posts: 271
      AF - (Times bet+Times raised)/Times called on all streets meaning it takes a big sample to be accurate, the thing is unless you combine it with AG% or AFq it doesn't tell you that much about your villain's range (unlike Vpip for example) but it does tell you quite an useful thing about the mindset of the opponent because the AF answers to the question: "Does my opponent like to lead the action or to be the one who follows?" so for me AF of 1.5 or less means that this guy is the perfect target for thinner value bets especially combined with high vpip and wtsd, 1.5-3 means somewhat aggressive and occasionally bluffing but mostly playing for value, 3-4.5 feels like tag/lag meaning he barely calls at all and bluffs a decent amount of the time

      AG% and AFq become somewhat reliable after a sample of 300h and they also do help narrow villains range significantly and not only understand his tendencies, the formula for AFq is [Times*raised+Times bet]/ [Times Raised + Times Bet + Times Called + Times Folded] and the one for AG% is I believe the same but includes "+Times Checked in the denominator"[So there is around 5%(?) difference in the 2 stats but they aren't very different] , therefore they both answer the question "What % of my actions are aggressive actions(bets or raises)?". I guess one of the main use of these is to conclude whether the opp bets his draws & air or not and I think around 20% is quite passive and means the opponent bets only his strong holdings but I can't really give you exact ranges for what 20,30,40,50,60% of AFq or AG% would mean and since all stats mentioned are hugely reliable on VPIP I think the best way to understand them is to simply give an example of a villain with certain stats :)