[NL2-NL10] KK, 5bet or not? :)

    • Imimba1
      Imimba1
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2011 Posts: 2,897
      Poker Stars $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2033828
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      CO: $10.00 - VPIP: 34, PFR: 17, 3B: 4, AF: 1.1, Hands: 712
      Hero (BTN): $15.59 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 16, 3B: 4, AF: 2.0, Hands: 65659
      SB: $19.22 - VPIP: 14, PFR: 14, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 36
      BB: $5.16 - VPIP: 43, PFR: 22, 3B: 0, AF: 0.3, Hands: 37
      UTG: $6.00 - VPIP: 25, PFR: 16, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 57
      MP: $11.53 - VPIP: 26, PFR: 22, 3B: 4, AF: 3.8, Hands: 140

      Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with K :spade: K :diamond:
      1 fold, MP raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, Hero raises to $1.20, 2 folds, MP raises to $2.70, 1 fold, Hero?

      Well, he has a 3b range of only 4%, but now he 4bets, hmmm. We have to maximize value vs AK, and QQ here basically. But I think they wouldnt fold now, so just 5bet to maximize, OR??
  • 9 replies
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Don't even look at 3-bet with 140 hands :) You will only make mistakes. Even your general "feelings" at this spot would be more accurate.

      5bet to maximize, OR??

      ...or call and hope that there will be no aces on the board :D As I hate doing this, for me it's easier to push preflop. We still have +EV.

      Why I don't like calling here, is because when we call and see an ace on the board we start pulling our hair out when he donks. But even if there are no aces on the board, we can no longer fold and are still beaten by AA, so it doesn't change anything :)
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Hi Imimba,

      Preflop: Once he 4-bet i don't think he is folding anything that he did so for value (let's say JJ+, AK possibly AQs).

      Considering we are squeezing here he may be 4-betting light which good for us because we can collect dead money too when he folds.

      So I'd just ship it.
    • Imimba1
      Imimba1
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2011 Posts: 2,897
      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      Hi Imimba,

      Preflop: Once he 4-bet i don't think he is folding anything that he did so for value (let's say JJ+, AK possibly AQs).

      Considering we are squeezing here he may be 4-betting light which good for us because we can collect dead money too when he folds.

      So I'd just ship it.
      Ah, very good points.

      I need your help here again: what do you think about my thought process?

      Oh well, he might have JJ,TT, which are going to fold if I 4bet, so it's better to keep them in, and if we both hit overpair, it's going to be very easy to stack them.

      But reading your lines, it is true, that he probably wont fold after he 4bets with them, so there is really no reason NOT to 4bet here against them.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Several points to think about, I'll make my point in the form of questions;

      1) I like squeezing preflop here. When do you think I would prefer to call?

      2) At higher stakes this is an incredibly easy ship preflop vs a 4bet especially considering villain is OOP which increases his motivation to 4bet. I would say it is still standard to get it in here, but what general opponent tendencies at these lower stakes mean that this spot will likely be less +ev for you than at the slightly higher stakes?

      3) If we have 140 hands on villain and your hud says his 3bet is 4% how many times do you think he has 3bet in this sample?

      note - I would call the 3bet stat, 3B%, not 3B Range. This is purely for consistency with the 4bet% and 4betrange stats.
    • Imimba1
      Imimba1
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2011 Posts: 2,897
      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      Several points to think about, I'll make my point in the form of questions;

      1) I like squeezing preflop here. When do you think I would prefer to call?

      2) At higher stakes this is an incredibly easy ship preflop vs a 4bet especially considering villain is OOP which increases his motivation to 4bet. I would say it is still standard to get it in here, but what general opponent tendencies at these lower stakes mean that this spot will likely be less +ev for you than at the slightly higher stakes?

      3) If we have 140 hands on villain and your hud says his 3bet is 4% how many times do you think he has 3bet in this sample?

      note - I would call the 3bet stat, 3B%, not 3B Range. This is purely for consistency with the 4bet% and 4betrange stats.
      1) I'd call the 4bet, if I couldnt 5bet for value.
      But, considering that even Ax has 30% equity against us, it isnt bad to make even his bluffs to fold here. I dont think villain bluffs here though. --> After he 4bets, he's not going to fold, so should rather go broke here.
      EVEN if he bluffs with a blocker hand, we should 5bet, because Ax has 30% equity against us... Well, I think we can NEVER call here...

      2) Well, people go broke tighter here prelfop than at high stakes, so it's less +ev to 5bet than at high stakes imo.


      3) Probably 2 or 3 times.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
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      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Originally posted by Imimba1
      1) I'd call the 4bet, if I couldnt 5bet for value.
      But, considering that even Ax has 30% equity against us, it isnt bad to make even his bluffs to fold here. I dont think villain bluffs here though. --> After he 4bets, he's not going to fold, so should rather go broke here.
      EVEN if he bluffs with a blocker hand, we should 5bet, because Ax has 30% equity against us... Well, I think we can NEVER call here...

      2) Well, people go broke tighter here prelfop than at high stakes, so it's less +ev to 5bet than at high stakes imo.


      3) Probably 2 or 3 times.
      1) Nice try, I'd say this thought is more relevant with a hand like QQ or JJ (or AQs BB vs SB) because its going to be impossible to fold KK pre :D

      The main reason i would call is when we have an aggressive squeezer in the blinds behind us. Those guys who have a 3bet of 12% or so often can't help but squeeze all their Axs, many SC's, and some hands like K7s or J7s. This presents you with a great spot to call to induce the sqeeze and backraise when they do. You'll find you get little credit and they shove many of the aforementioned semibluff hands :)

      A less likely alternative may be an extremely loose open-raiser who seems to have near 100% aggression yet seems to shut down when raised. Although this idea is good in theory it can become extremely scary in practice on many different boards so you have to be extremely confident in your hand.

      2) Pretty much yea, I've noticed that players really like calling hands that could be thought of as insta-4bets. Some AA slowplays, QQ AK or AKs get called extremely frequently. The majority of players are just not as active in 4-betting which therefore removes a lot of the value from getting it in pre with KK. This is of course, extremely opponent specific :) . As you say, sometimes those same players 4bet Ax for some reason.

      3) Sounds about right. Could be more if he's had a lot of chances to 3bet, but the important thin is that it can be quite hard to read anything into this number so far. (I would on the other hand think he is aggressive with a 12 to 14% 3bet)

      Sorry if that turned out to be a lot to read. Didn't think it would be that long. Hope it helps :)
    • Th334
      Th334
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      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      The main reason i would call is when we have an aggressive squeezer in the blinds behind us. Those guys who have a 3bet of 12% or so often can't help but squeeze all their Axs, many SC's, and some hands like K7s or J7s. This presents you with a great spot to call to induce the sqeeze and backraise when they do. You'll find you get little credit and they shove many of the aforementioned semibluff hands :)
      That's pretty awesome :) Although it will take me a couple of years of grinding to get to the limits where people squeeze often enough for it to be profitable, but I'll definitely remember the trick! Hang on NL50... :f_cool:

      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      Sorry if that turned out to be a lot to read. Didn't think it would be that long. Hope it helps :)
      I found it useful :) cheers.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
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      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      glad i could help :)
    • Imimba1
      Imimba1
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      Joined: 12.12.2011 Posts: 2,897
      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      glad i could help :)
      This is very helpful, thank you Phunk!
      Here is the reward: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xIYVw3ZPJk

      on 1) I thought you meant calling the 4b :D :D
      Well, I guess you have a squeeze stat in one of the popups, right?

      3)Well, the player pool is pretty huge, we dont have the opportunity to wait out the "big samples" I think, we have to use what we have. 4% 3b means exactly, what it says: He 3bets very-very little, but now he 4bets, it's an even tighter range. The main point is, that he's not going to fold any value hand here, so it's +ev to get it in.