[NL2-NL10] KQ, can valuebet be made on river?

    • Imimba1
      Imimba1
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2011 Posts: 2,897
      Poker Stars $5.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2035678
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      MP: $9.99 - VPIP: 13, PFR: 9, 3B: 4, AF: 3.5, Hands: 149
      CO: $4.92 - VPIP: 16, PFR: 13, 3B: 2, AF: 2.3, Hands: 134
      BTN: $4.00 - VPIP: 24, PFR: 21, 3B: 3, AF: 2.8, Hands: 97
      SB: $7.11 - VPIP: 29, PFR: 7, 3B: 2, AF: 1.3, Hands: 453, opencall: 34%, WTS:31
      BB: $2.22 - VPIP: 57, PFR: 4, 3B: 0, AF: 4.0, Hands: 23
      Hero (UTG): $6.20 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 16, 3B: 4, AF: 2.0, Hands: 68570

      Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is UTG with Q :spade: K :club:
      Hero raises to $0.15, 3 folds, SB calls $0.13, BB calls $0.10

      Flop: ($0.45) 2 :heart: 7 :diamond: T :heart: (3 players)
      SB checks, BB bets $0.05, Hero calls $0.05, SB calls $0.05

      Turn: ($0.60) Q :diamond: (3 players)
      SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.49, SB calls $0.49, BB folds

      River: ($1.58) 8 :diamond: (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero? Thin value: 0.5$/fold?
  • 10 replies
    • kymupa
      kymupa
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2009 Posts: 22,364
      Hello,

      We could skip raising KQo from UTG here.

      What's the reasoning for calling the flop minbet? I think folding here will be good, since even if we hit K or Q we are not sure to have the best hand, also can't really call a turn bet with K high and we have a player behind.

      On the turn betting is good.

      I prefer checking behind the river. Board is bad and betting here would be very thin.

      Best,
      Plamen
    • Imimba1
      Imimba1
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2011 Posts: 2,897
      Originally posted by kymupa
      Hello,

      We could skip raising KQo from UTG here.

      What's the reasoning for calling the flop minbet? I think folding here will be good, since even if we hit K or Q we are not sure to have the best hand, also can't really call a turn bet with K high and we have a player behind.

      On the turn betting is good.

      I prefer checking behind the river. Board is bad and betting here would be very thin.

      Best,
      Plamen
      I coud potentially have a leak here. I need your help, is this thought process right or wrong?

      1) What would you do PF instead, and why?

      (on the flop)
      2) I call, because even with no implied odds I only need 9% equity to call, which I surely have. Yes, we cant be sure they are clean, but even e.g. with bottom set we cant be sure we have the best hand. Even with FH we cant be sure, there is always the quads possibility. We can never be sure. We could also argue: we are most probably going to be ahead if we hit, which is the case. It's more probable than we are going to be behind. -I THINK

      AND

      3 we can not let people think, that they can push us out from the pot by a min-bet. It is absolutely unaccaptable in my opinion. They would have autoprofit on us nearly always, because they only need need miniscule tiny FE to make it profitable.
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      I don't think that people who min-bet at NL5 are concerned about fold equity and their bet size per se, so correspondingly you shouldn't be concerned of "what they think that you think" about their bet-sizing. It's one level of thinking higher that you should be applying to fish (if not two).

      Plamen, why do you think that with a queen or a king we will be behind someone who bets 10% of the pot in two opponents? Or behind someone who calls these 10% after us.
    • kymupa
      kymupa
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2009 Posts: 22,364
      Hello again,

      Preflop I think we can fold. With KQo we rarely get called by worse hands, also can't really hit too many good draws.

      I think we should not only looks at the flop call equity-wise, but we should think over the possible scenarios:
      - we call the flop and SB decides to come over the top and we lose 1bb.
      - we call the flop, and turn comes a brick - can we really call again with K high?
      - we call the flop and we hit the Qh - are we going to feel comfortable?

      Overall, I don't really think people would push us around with minbets, but by folding we are not putting ourselves in tough spots on the later streets which could cost us a lot of money.
    • Imimba1
      Imimba1
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2011 Posts: 2,897
      Originally posted by kymupa
      Hello again,

      Preflop I think we can fold. With KQo we rarely get called by worse hands, also can't really hit too many good draws.

      I think we should not only looks at the flop call equity-wise, but we should think over the possible scenarios:
      - we call the flop and SB decides to come over the top and we lose 1bb.
      - we call the flop, and turn comes a brick - can we really call again with K high?
      - we call the flop and we hit the Qh - are we going to feel comfortable?

      Overall, I don't really think people would push us around with minbets, but by folding we are not putting ourselves in tough spots on the later streets which could cost us a lot of money.
      I understand your flop thoughts now. But is KQ really a fold in UTG in your opinion? It looks pretty strong to me, and the blinds looks fishy, they are surely going to call. I mean, I open already AJ+, KQ+, 66+ from UTG, is this still too wide? c'mon
      We can get called by many worse hands (especially by the blinds)
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Originally posted by Imimba1
      I understand your flop thoughts now. But is KQ really a fold in UTG in your opinion? It looks pretty strong to me, and the blinds looks fishy, they are surely going to call. I mean, I open already AJ+, KQ+, 66+ from UTG, is this still too wide? c'mon
      We can get called by many worse hands (especially by the blinds)
      I open KQ from UTG :f_rolleyes: Smaller pockets as well most of the time.

      *whispers* but don't tell Plamen :f_biggrin:

      I think what Plamen is saying is that you can open KQ from UTG, but you can also fold it as well, if you think that your table is loose/aggressive. It's kinda a borderline hand, and he doesn't recommend you to open with it very often. I guess... :f_rolleyes: please correct me if I'm wrong.

      "You can't really go wrong by opening tight from UTG" -- I remember some coach saying this.

      In your case, if the blinds are fishy and are likely to call, I would prefer opening here since I'm likely to have the best hand postflop, not to mention my edge against fish.
    • kymupa
      kymupa
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2009 Posts: 22,364
      Considering that we have fish on the blinds I don't really mind opening it, but then we have to be very cautious postflop with this hand.

      Biggest problem with this hand is that it looks very good but it isn't indeed.
      If we think about it, it's hard to take a lot of value out of our top pair, and we can't really hit too much good draws as well.

      I do suggest you guys to see how much you win opening hands like these from UTG.
      *Note: I do want to say again that as long as there are fish in the blinds I don't mind it.

      About the PPs - I open every PP from every position. They are quite easy to play postflop and if we hit we are likely to take decent value.
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Hey, Plamen, is AJ considered to be flat-out better than KQ? With AJ when we hit a J we have TPTK, and when we hit an ace, we can still take the hand to the showdown in a single raised pot. Both hands are dominated by AK and AQ though. At least we have Ace-high with AJ and have some equity even if we miss everything.

      What do you think?
    • kymupa
      kymupa
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2009 Posts: 22,364
      Hello,

      I think overall AJ plays better than KQ and I do prefer it as well.
      If we just look at the domination effect it is the same, but if we have AJs it's better than KQs because we draw to the nuts.

      Best,
      Plamen
    • Imimba1
      Imimba1
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2011 Posts: 2,897
      Originally posted by kymupa
      Hello,

      I think overall AJ plays better than KQ and I do prefer it as well.
      If we just look at the domination effect it is the same, but if we have AJs it's better than KQs because we draw to the nuts.

      Best,
      Plamen
      +1