I really need a review for this hand

    • kartsah
      kartsah
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.10.2010 Posts: 22
      So I got into argument with my friend who used to help me with poker related stuff. I sent him one hand just to get some sympathy on getting sucked out on the river.

      In my opinion I played the hand ABC, one two three, you and me, perfectly, but he disagreed on few decisions I made.

      I post this hand now and I explain my thinking process for it, and explain how my friend would've played it. So which way is more correct?

      PS. My opponent had stats of 20VPIP/13PFR/4,8% 3-bet/6% 3-bet vs steal, so it was a bad reg from my view.

      $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
      PokerStars
      6 Players
      Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG Atzki82 ($11.02) 44bb
      UTG+1 lewisowl ($26.64) 107bb
      CO kartsah ($38.80) 155bb
      BTN JohnSmithOld ($34.16) 137bb
      SB Cryddan ($30.32) 121bb
      BB istnurgeld ($31.02) 124bb

      Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 6 players) kartsah is CO A:club: A:spade:
      2 folds, kartsah raises to $0.55, 2 folds, istnurgeld raises to $1.75, kartsah raises to $4, istnurgeld calls $2.25

      Flop: 7:diamond: 3:heart: 6:heart: ($8.10, 2 players)
      istnurgeld checks, kartsah bets $4.79, istnurgeld raises to $13.50, kartsah calls $8.71

      Turn: 9:diamond: ($35.10, 2 players)
      istnurgeld goes all-in $13.52, kartsah calls $13.52

      River: K:club: ($62.14, 2 players, 1 all-in)

      Final Pot: $62.14
      istnurgeld shows three of a kind, Kings
      K:spade: K:diamond:
      kartsah shows a pair of Aces
      A:club: A:spade:

      istnurgeld wins $60.14 (net +$29.12)

      kartsah lost $31.02

      My thinking process was, that when he 3-bet me preflop that I am going to make a slightly smallish raise to induce him to bluff 5-bet me more often. I was also in position, so why not just 3-bet his 1,75$ into 4$ and play in position if he calls?

      So on the flop he checks and I c-bet about 75%(4,79$) of the pot, since the board does not represent his range at all, unless he decided to play crazy a pocket pair or suited connector hand.
      On default when he called, I put him on 1010-QQ,AQ-AK(he had KK which was kinda meh, like I didn't expect him to call with that OOP).

      He decided to 3-bet me on the flop to 13,50$, leaving him 13$ behind and about 20$ behind me as you can review from the hand.
      -----------------------------
      The reason why I just flat called was to induce him to overplay his handrange which I put him on(1010-QQ,AQ-AK, sometimes even 88-99). And the money was going in anyways no matter what if he was to have a hand, so why not just let him bet it for me?
      -----------------------------
      If I was to shove to his 3-bet, I think that some of the time they may even fold, especially now that I was up against a reg.

      On the turn he shoves, I call and he hits his 2outer, end of story.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Now my friend considered, that I should 4-bet a bit bigger preflop, which wouldn't be that bad of a move I guess, but that would scare the opponent and end the hand very often in my opinion, especially when I do that in position. I suppose my friend sees it better to put as much money in the pot preflop as possible, even if it was aces in position.

      My friend also suggested me to simply shove over my foes 3-bet on the flop. I suppose he also thinks that it's better to end the hand right there or force the opponent to go all-in, since there is no more folding anyways if he was to have a hand.

      I'll link this post to my friend so he might personally explain better his views, but now I want to hear what you guys think, thanks !
  • 6 replies
    • kartsah
      kartsah
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.10.2010 Posts: 22
      No bump. Just posting Boomplayer if you guys wanna see it the way I did.

      http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/1499667_E922265CD3
    • ShaQQ
      ShaQQ
      Silver
      Joined: 07.10.2008 Posts: 162
      Your opening raise size is too small, in terms of your 4-bet, villains stack size should dictate the size of it not just this spot but in future 3-bet / 4-bet / 5-bet spots as well, due to you both being slightly deeper you want to make your 4-bet bigger, $5 - $6 seems fine. Post flop just ship after your c-bet gets raised.

      gl, Paul.
    • kartsah
      kartsah
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.10.2010 Posts: 22
      Alright, but raising in example all the way to 6$... isn't that kinda of a tell? If I always 4-bet over 100% of the pot when I'm in position kinda gives it away that what I have?

      Also if I was to bluff 4-bet in a spot like that against someone who 3-bets alot with a hand like A5s just to put it out there, then wouldn't I then also have to 4-bet to 6$? Wouldn't that make my 4-bets very expensive, making it so that I would only and only 4-bet aces and kings? Like I assume that some regs pay attention to that stuff like that.

      I do see your point though on 4-betting more just because we are both slightly above 100BB, but I still have position and I can control the hand any way I want.

      Let's say we were both 100BB. Would you then 3-bet to 4-5$? and if we were both 200-250BB deep, then would you 4-bet at a spot like that to 6-9 over to a 1,70$ 3-bet?
    • ShaQQ
      ShaQQ
      Silver
      Joined: 07.10.2008 Posts: 162
      Play your 4bet pots for what they are, you can adjust size for value and light at this level and can balance quite easily.
      I think the problem originates from your opening size, 0.85 - $1 means villains 3bet will be $2.4 - $4, allowing you to 4bet larger for value and 2.5x as a light 4bet, villain dependent.
      In terms of spots where you 3-4bet 2.5x for value, you're giving villain credit for being capable of 4-5 betting light, if you don't have that information just 4bet on the larger side for pure value and look to get it in, there are spots where 4betting 2.5x is fine, totally standard, the 2 mistakes in this hand however are your opening bet sizing and not getting it in on the flop.
      The time to be concerned about your consistency is when you're playing day in day out vs the same opponents, that are solid players, a rarity.
      4betting to $4 - $5.5 is fine 100bb's deep, it depends on your standard opening size, say if it was $1 from all but the button, and villain raises 3x then 4betting to $7.5 - $8.5 is fine, if you raise min and villain 3-bets you to $1.75 then 6-9 being deep is overplaying.
      Pre flop the two 3bet / 4bet spots that'll crop up most that could cause you some difficulty are being squeezed and applying pressure to villains opening range in position, 3betting pre in position can be really profitable if you can play 3bet pots post flop optimally. The second is if you have players in the blinds that are squeezing a ton, if MP opens and you're button with KA AA KK etc, flatting can also be profitable to balance your calling range, and subsequently 4betting BB's squeeze.

      Bit long winded, apologies. The problem is, giving general advice for 3bet, 4bet spots is pretty difficult given they are all slightly different, best thing you can do (if you aren't already) is post 3bet 4bet lines in the forum and get feedback, start building up a consistent understanding of the lines and how to evaluate them.
    • kartsah
      kartsah
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.10.2010 Posts: 22
      Yeah, I can understand some concepts that you gave me.

      It's always profitable to get as much money in preflop as possible with strong starting hands, especially with aces.

      To disagree a little, in this specific case I still wouldn't 4-bet too big. I think that if I went back in time then I would 4-bet to 4.25 or 4.75, because I really don't want to lose my customer. Also I understand that if your making the raise too inviting(being too small raise size) then you can only blame yourself for being outflopped.

      I still do believe that with my skill level(better than average) I am able to dictate and control the hand the best way possible in position against deep or average stacks, and to be able to extract anywhere near the max value, or the absolute max.

      I kinda see the point of just going all-in on the flop in this case because of board being too draw- heavy and that my hand wasn't really the nuts there, even when I can succesfully put my opponent on the correct range.
      So there was no point slowplaying any further than that, since the foe was most likely committed there no matter what happened.

      I still do believe that in some cases certain players might 3-bet the flop with AJ-AK on flops like that just to make a desperate bluff attempt which I've seen quite a few on 25NL, but if the foe was to have absolutely any overpair on a board like that after 3-betting the flop, then he was never folding.
      It was a small possibility also that the foe had A10-AKs and decided to semi-bluff, so the money was going in anyways.

      Yeah, I also like your suggestion of flatting with premiums against UTG-MP-CO raises when there are people that squeeze way too often from SB or BB. I've tried that move a few times but it always ends up the aggressive player folding or calling 3-way.
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------

      Okay, few more people give your view on how you think is the best way to extract maximum value in situations like this before we lock this thread :f_biggrin:
    • kartsah
      kartsah
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.10.2010 Posts: 22
      I got a very similar hand today on 25NL against an unknown player this time, but I assume he wasn't good the way he played the hand lol.

      This hand kinda confirms what I said earlier about letting my opponent hang himself with overcards which I put him on, such as AQ-AK(sometimes suited), making it possible to get the max possible value by flatting on the flop against 3-bet and let him do the work for me.

      In this case also I still think the opponent may fold to a shove on the flop over his 3-bet, so I did gain the best possible value with this play without a doubt.

      Only difference in this hand is that the flop paired pretty safely, no multiple straight draws and that I was playing against a shorter stacked player than earlier.

      Also sorry for posting 2 hands in same topic, but this kinda relates to my first hand.

      $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
      PokerStars
      6 Players
      Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG tyyyyyyyga ($20.41) 82bb
      UTG+1 Too Wicked ($25) 100bb
      CO kartsah ($41.26) 165bb
      BTN SirEkk ($23.43) 94bb
      SB Taradok ($25.53) 102bb
      BB DonTrustMe78 ($25) 100bb

      Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 6 players) kartsah is CO A:club: A:spade:
      tyyyyyyyga raises to $0.70, 1 fold, kartsah raises to $2.20, 3 folds, tyyyyyyyga calls $1.50

      Flop: 3:club: 3:heart: 10:club: ($4.75, 2 players)
      tyyyyyyyga checks, kartsah bets $2.93, tyyyyyyyga raises to $6.70, kartsah calls $3.77

      Turn: 7:club: ($18.15, 2 players)
      tyyyyyyyga goes all-in $11.51, kartsah calls $11.51

      River: 4:heart: ($41.17, 2 players, 1 all-in)

      Final Pot: $41.17
      tyyyyyyyga shows a pair of Threes
      A:heart: K:spade:
      kartsah shows two pair, Aces and Threes
      A:club: A:spade:

      kartsah wins $39.32 (net +$18.91)

      tyyyyyyyga lost $20.41