[NL2-NL10] NL2 FR - J8s two pair

    • painterman007
      painterman007
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.05.2009 Posts: 82
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.02(BB) Replayer
      SB ($2)
      BB ($1.32)
      UTG ($1.98)
      UTG+1 ($2.48)
      UTG+2 ($1.98)
      Hero ($2.29)
      CO ($0.90)
      BTN ($0.80)

      Dealt to Hero 8:diamond: J:diamond:

      fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.06, fold, fold, fold, BB calls $0.04

      FLOP ($0.13) J:spade: 8:club: Q:spade:

      BB checks, Hero bets $0.09, BB raises to $0.24, Hero calls $0.15

      TURN ($0.61) J:spade: 8:club: Q:spade: K:club:

      BB bets $0.61, Hero ???

      Standard size C-bet for value and protection, figuring the only hands that beat me are sets, and I see many pairs calling.
      His check-raise didnt strike me as very strong, because I recently attended a coaching where check-raising was said to be a good move for even down to top-pair.
      Because of his short stack i decide to just call, because if he has something worth calling a raise with on the flop, he will bet again on the turn. When he leaves 20 bb I just shove, because he is comitted anyway and is clearly going with his hand. The straight is the only thing that scares me, though I felt like he would play this way with alot of strong pairs/draws.

      Reviewing it, I see he had stats 33/0 over 58 hands, and combined with his checkraise, he looks super strong. So strong that i doubt he would play that way with anything less than two pair. I can see some people at NL2 playing this way with a strong draw and a pair, but this seems like quite a passive opponent, so thus I cannot see much of his range that I have beat or can often outdraw.

      Thank you :)
  • 3 replies
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Hi Painterman,

      Preflop: What coaching did you attend? Were they playing 6 max or HU and higher up?

      Because ck/raising even with TP is good versus players that can call, like fishy guys.

      Now the reverse doesn't usually apply to most people. Just because it may be profitable to raise TP in a spot doesn't mean that every time you get raised they can have TP.

      Certain players definitely raise TP and overvalue it but passive fish usually don't.

      Since we have bottom two pair here and there are quite a lot of hands that beat us or have a lot of equity versus us I would bet/fold the flop (although I'd bet/fold pot).
    • painterman007
      painterman007
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.05.2009 Posts: 82
      It was not higher than NL10, either 6-max or FR.
      I guess c/r with top pair is more viable 6max, considering its looser play?
      Would you assume villain is a callingstation? I know 33/0 is just preflop, but with 58 hands...
      Against the "average NL5 player" you would say checkraising top pair is a viable play? Of course it depends on alot of factors, but I have always felt it chases away weaker hands, which is not what a valuebet is for. I feel even callingstations would get away.

      bet a pot size bet (extra big) because of the wet board, and fold to a raise? Then callers would be weaker than 2 pair..?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by painterman007
      It was not higher than NL10, either 6-max or FR.
      I guess c/r with top pair is more viable 6max, considering its looser play?
      Would you assume villain is a callingstation? I know 33/0 is just preflop, but with 58 hands...
      Against the "average NL5 player" you would say checkraising top pair is a viable play? Of course it depends on alot of factors, but I have always felt it chases away weaker hands, which is not what a valuebet is for. I feel even callingstations would get away.

      bet a pot size bet (extra big) because of the wet board, and fold to a raise? Then callers would be weaker than 2 pair..?
      Fishy players tend to be calling stations so someone like 33/0 over 58 hands could be one. However I prefer to see they are calling stations based on what they get to showdown with (and you'll be able to identify calling stations fairly fast).

      I would not ck/raise TP as a standard versus an average NL5 player. As you said we are isolating ourselves most often and fold too many hands that we could get value from playing otherwise.

      As far as the bet goes we can expect most people to call weaker hands rather than raise and this guy is no different. I'd expect him to call most draws, Qx, etc.