[NL20-NL50] NL50 FR - KT on BU

    • AtrociousNightmare
      AtrociousNightmare
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (BTN): $54.06 (108.1 bb)
      SB: $79.44 (158.9 bb)
      BB: $70.40 (140.8 bb)
      MP1: $61.65 (123.3 bb)
      MP2: $51.76 (103.5 bb)
      MP3: $50 (100 bb)
      CO: $58.22 (116.4 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with T K
      4 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, SB calls $1.25, BB calls $1

      Flop: ($4.50) T 5 2 (3 players)
      SB bets $2.50, BB folds, Hero calls $2.50

      Turn: ($9.50) J (2 players)
      SB bets $4, Hero calls $4

      River: ($17.50) 4 (2 players)
      SB bets $12.50, Hero folds

      Results:
      $17.50 pot ($0.96 rake)
      Final Board: T 5 2 J 4
      Hero mucked T K and lost (-$8 net)
      SB mucked and won $16.54 ($8.54 net)

      Stats: VPIP: 61, PFR: 39, 3B: 0, AF: 8,0, Hands: 23

      23 hands are very few. I think I had even less on him at that time.

      Anyway, on flop I call because of donk on very dry board, so I think of bluff/lowTx/5x.
      On the turn I was really uncertain as he continues, but the size is very small so I decide to call and see.
      After the 3rd street and a much bigger size I decide to fold, after all there was J, A3 closed, AT...
  • 10 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      I agree with the river thinking but what about raising flop or value and even turn? There are very few hands that improve on the turn from the flop that didn't have you beat already. He can still have worse Tx, flushdraws, gutters, smaller pairs. I would raise flop most often and raise turn after just calling flop here. It's a value raise, thinner than what you'd think as standard but it works against his range. That said, it's a raise fold.

      Could you tell me why it's not bad to raise/fold KTo here? What hand would be bad to raise fold on the turn that isn't the nuts?
    • AtrociousNightmare
      AtrociousNightmare
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      I agree with the river thinking but what about raising flop or value and even turn? There are very few hands that improve on the turn from the flop that didn't have you beat already. He can still have worse Tx, flushdraws, gutters, smaller pairs. I would raise flop most often and raise turn after just calling flop here. It's a value raise, thinner than what you'd think as standard but it works against his range. That said, it's a raise fold.

      Could you tell me why it's not bad to raise/fold KTo here? What hand would be bad to raise fold on the turn that isn't the nuts?
      Didn't raise flop 'cos I thought I would have isolated myself vs better range, or making gutshots, 5x and maybe some low T go away.
      And with his huge AF I thought he could have been even on a bluff.
      On the turn I didn't raise basically because of the same reasons, I mean at this point, even with a J there, only better hands call my raise.

      For your question, flop or turn?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by AtrociousNightmare
      For your question, flop or turn?
      Both. You can use the exercise! :D
    • AtrociousNightmare
      AtrociousNightmare
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      I agree with the river thinking but what about raising flop or value and even turn? There are very few hands that improve on the turn from the flop that didn't have you beat already. He can still have worse Tx, flushdraws, gutters, smaller pairs. I would raise flop most often and raise turn after just calling flop here. It's a value raise, thinner than what you'd think as standard but it works against his range. That said, it's a raise fold.

      Could you tell me why it's not bad to raise/fold KTo here? What hand would be bad to raise fold on the turn that isn't the nuts?
      I just noticed I didn't read "on the turn" sigh lol sorry.

      Let's see, on the turn I'd say it's bad to raise/fold sets, JT, KsQs, even if I have doubts on the latter one, I should make precise equity calculations which I don't have time to do now 'cos I should start my tables in 1 minute.

      On the flop it's bad to raise/fold... mmm... well sets, AA/KK/QQ (I have my doubts on the queens), well I don't know what else you would raise here.

      Quite a difficult question to just imagine x_x
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by AtrociousNightmare
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      I agree with the river thinking but what about raising flop or value and even turn? There are very few hands that improve on the turn from the flop that didn't have you beat already. He can still have worse Tx, flushdraws, gutters, smaller pairs. I would raise flop most often and raise turn after just calling flop here. It's a value raise, thinner than what you'd think as standard but it works against his range. That said, it's a raise fold.

      Could you tell me why it's not bad to raise/fold KTo here? What hand would be bad to raise fold on the turn that isn't the nuts?
      I just noticed I didn't read "on the turn" sigh lol sorry.

      Let's see, on the turn I'd say it's bad to raise/fold sets, JT, KsQs, even if I have doubts on the latter one, I should make precise equity calculations which I don't have time to do now 'cos I should start my tables in 1 minute.

      On the flop it's bad to raise/fold... mmm... well sets, AA/KK/QQ (I have my doubts on the queens), well I don't know what else you would raise here.

      Quite a difficult question to just imagine x_x
      What about lower equity bluffs? How they compare? What's the difference in their equity, outs and playability?
    • AtrociousNightmare
      AtrociousNightmare
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2010 Posts: 1,185
      I will answer tomorrow I think, now I'm fried and I'm on the tables xD
      If you want to answer yourself so that I can learn that's fine :D :D :D
    • AtrociousNightmare
      AtrociousNightmare
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by AtrociousNightmare
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      I agree with the river thinking but what about raising flop or value and even turn? There are very few hands that improve on the turn from the flop that didn't have you beat already. He can still have worse Tx, flushdraws, gutters, smaller pairs. I would raise flop most often and raise turn after just calling flop here. It's a value raise, thinner than what you'd think as standard but it works against his range. That said, it's a raise fold.

      Could you tell me why it's not bad to raise/fold KTo here? What hand would be bad to raise fold on the turn that isn't the nuts?
      I just noticed I didn't read "on the turn" sigh lol sorry.

      Let's see, on the turn I'd say it's bad to raise/fold sets, JT, KsQs, even if I have doubts on the latter one, I should make precise equity calculations which I don't have time to do now 'cos I should start my tables in 1 minute.

      On the flop it's bad to raise/fold... mmm... well sets, AA/KK/QQ (I have my doubts on the queens), well I don't know what else you would raise here.

      Quite a difficult question to just imagine x_x
      What about lower equity bluffs? How they compare? What's the difference in their equity, outs and playability?
      Ok I'm back, sorry for late (had my free day yesterday).

      So I don't really know how to answer this question, as I don't have basically any bluff yet in my ranges (YET! I just have to study more) except for semi bluffs, and known weak spots of certain regulars.
      Also against such a loose player I don't know if I'd do it.
      Can I have the answer?
      I really don't know where to start from.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      You don't need to have those bluffs in your range but it's an exercise to realize why some hands are better to raise because of their low equity and some have too high equity to raise/fold.

      Good hands to raise/fold on flop: A3s, A4s, 76 with backdoor flush, 64, A2. All these hands have potential to improve but they don't do it often (A3, A4, A2) and even when they do, you might not have the nuts or just improve to another draw (76s).

      Bad hands to raise fold flop don't exist that much.. just 34 is probably bad to raise because it has so much equity but apart from that, no draws/air you raise/fold are bad IMO. Sometimes the A3, A4 hands can be a call as well depending on how passive your opponent is later.

      For turn you can raise/fold gutters like Q8, AK, AQ and same gutshots you have got there from the flop if you just flatted A3, A4. The idea is you have equity, your bluff frequency is not high but at the same time you don't get odds to call/draw, nor do implied odds make up for it. If you have a stronger draw, you make it more often and the implied odds make up for the lack of direct pot odds very often, thus raise/folding a flushdraw for example or a bluffcatcher like KT is a waste of hand imo.
    • AtrociousNightmare
      AtrociousNightmare
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      You don't need to have those bluffs in your range but it's an exercise to realize why some hands are better to raise because of their low equity and some have too high equity to raise/fold.

      Good hands to raise/fold on flop: A3s, A4s, 76 with backdoor flush, 64, A2. All these hands have potential to improve but they don't do it often (A3, A4, A2) and even when they do, you might not have the nuts or just improve to another draw (76s).

      Bad hands to raise fold flop don't exist that much.. just 34 is probably bad to raise because it has so much equity but apart from that, no draws/air you raise/fold are bad IMO. Sometimes the A3, A4 hands can be a call as well depending on how passive your opponent is later.

      For turn you can raise/fold gutters like Q8, AK, AQ and same gutshots you have got there from the flop if you just flatted A3, A4. The idea is you have equity, your bluff frequency is not high but at the same time you don't get odds to call/draw, nor do implied odds make up for it. If you have a stronger draw, you make it more often and the implied odds make up for the lack of direct pot odds very often, thus raise/folding a flushdraw for example or a bluffcatcher like KT is a waste of hand imo.
      Thank you so much! This opens my head a bit :D

      One question tho, at the end you say RF KT is a waste of hand, but previously you suggested me to do it!
      Do you mean it'd be a waste on the turn, but it's ok to do it on the flop? (or at least on the turn is worse)
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      On the turn it's rly rly thin with KT to raise. But on flop you definitely get called by worse and only 3bet by better.

      On the turn I would mostly do it because his sizing looks like weaker Tx again and not a made hand. Had he bet 6 it would definitely be a very marginal, and probably bad raise. I gave a general example against common sizing based on hand type. You have to consider pot odds, hand equity and board texture overall but that leads to too many situations that I could explain in a post unfortunately.

      Just keep posting and watching videos, you'll get the hang of it with practice.