[NL2-NL10] 88

    • straywolf
      straywolf
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.12.2009 Posts: 203
      Full Tilt Poker $5.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2044049
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      UTG: $5.08 - VPIP: 16, PFR: 10, 3B: 0, AF: 7.0, Hands: 146
      MP: $2.15 - VPIP: 24, PFR: 20, 3B: 8, AF: 2.8, Hands: 768
      CO: $5.00 - VPIP: 27, PFR: 22, 3B: 6, AF: 3.0, Hands: 348
      Hero (BTN): $5.00 - VPIP: 23, PFR: 19, 3B: 7, AF: 3.3, Hands: 67896
      SB: $5.24 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 16, 3B: 0, AF: 1.5, Hands: 37
      BB: $5.03 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 16, 3B: 10, AF: 14.0, Hands: 253

      Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is BTN with 8 :club: 8 :heart:
      3 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 1 fold, BB raises to $0.47, Hero calls $0.32

      Flop: ($0.96) 2 :spade: 9 :diamond: Q :heart: (2 players)
      BB bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

      Turn: ($2.16) 3 :spade: (2 players)
      BB bets $1.29, Hero folds

      The call preflop? How should this be played?
  • 7 replies
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Hi,

      Preflop call is fine only (!) if you are not going to overplay your hand postflop. Unfortunately, that's exactly what you did :f_biggrin:

      We call preflop here for set value. We cannot expect to have a lot of equity in a 3bet pot with pocket 88 if we didn't hit an 8 on the flop. Thus, we should just give up when the villain cbets.

      Moreover, on this particular board there are even two overcards to our pair, so honestly, our hand is trash, and I would not try floating in such spots if I were you.

      Essentially: call preflop, fold the flop.

      Regards,

      German
    • Zukes
      Zukes
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.08.2009 Posts: 183
      Hi. If our goal postflop is almost always to set mine, why is it ok to call the 3bet when we can only win ~16x villain's raise? Don't we need better implied pot odds to call? My first thought would be to just fold.
    • kymupa
      kymupa
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2009 Posts: 22,364
      Hello,

      Preflop call is close and I'd recommend folding this since it's quite easy to loose a lot of money with this hand since the guy looks aggressive and he'd probably barrel a lot here.

      As played, with two overcards that connect pretty well I'm folding the flop.

      Folding the turn is fine.

      Best,
      Plamen
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Plamen, why does the fact that the guy is aggressive and barrels a lot make set-mining less attractive to you? It's exactly the opposite as for me :f_confused:

      Originally posted by Zukes
      Hi. If our goal postflop is almost always to set mine, why is it ok to call the 3bet when we can only win ~16x villain's raise? Don't we need better implied pot odds to call? My first thought would be to just fold.
      We call 32 cents to be able to win $5. We need 6.2% equity, but we have 12% of flopping a set. As you can see, actual implied odds are more than sufficient, provided that we fold when we miss, and we stack when we hit. It's up to you to decide whether you are able to fold when you miss and stack when you hit. As a rule of thumb, call-15 rule can be used in 3-bet pots. I like calling here because when we hit a set we are more likely to get paid in a 3-bet pot.
    • kymupa
      kymupa
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2009 Posts: 22,364
      Hello again,

      So if we call here only with the intention to set mine there's no difference between 88 and 22 here. Are you calling 22 here?

      The way I see it is a little bit more complicated.
      So, it's a BU against BB spot, where people do tend to 3bet quite wider. So, we have 12% of hitting a set, but then we don't stack him every time when we hit the set, and we don't have the best hand every time we hit the set.
      Also, we don't take value every time when we hit the set because we can't really expect him to mindlessly barrel on every board.

      So, if we are going to call here preflop, then I think we should have the intention to play postflop and use our position.
      So with 88 it is much likely to have at least one overcard on the flop, and even when there are no overcards we are not completely confident in calling down with our pair, right? Then we can't really hit any good draws with 88 and overall the hand doesn't have good playability postflop.

      So, in conclusion, against an aggressive opponent I'd prefer to just fold against the 3bet, since we can't really call for set mining, and we will have hard time playing this postflop.

      Best,
      Plamen
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Oh, true! Thanks.

      Same with cold-calling a steal for set value: people steal quite loose and we won't be paid off often enough even when we hit a set. That's why we tend to re-steal with pockets from time to time.

      Plamen, but if the guys is re-stealing only his value range (nit/fish), we can profitably call, right?

      Also, what hands would you call most of the time at this spot: TT-JJ? How about 99? It's not much better than 88. Maybe suited connectors as well? I'm only sure that we can call high broadways.
    • kymupa
      kymupa
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2009 Posts: 22,364
      I wouldn't say it's exactly like calling for set mining against a steal, but it doesn't differ very much.

      Against a nit who only 3bets QQ+ I'd still be tending to fold here. We had a thread in the Bulgarian community discussing about this (or a skype chat I don't remember since it was quite some time ago), and by some serious calculations we ended up that it wouldn't show profit at all if you only play for a set.

      In this particular situation I'd be tending to call JJ-99, hands like AQ/AJs, KQs, some SC like JTs/T9s - overall hands that have good playability postflop.