bluffing in 3way 5bet pot

    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      $2/$4 No Limit Holdem
      5 Players
      Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG ($462.95) 116bb
      HERO (CO) ($977.89) 244bb
      BTN ($950.22) 238bb
      SB ($414.16) 104bb
      BB ($1,455.05) 364bb

      Pre-Flop: ($6, 5 players) HERO is CO 8:spade: A:spade:
      1 fold, HERO raises to $10.60, BTN raises to $40, 1 fold, BB raises to $90, HERO raises to $164, BTN calls $124, BB calls $74

      Flop: 3:spade: 5:heart: 6:diamond: ($494, 3 players)
      BB checks, HERO bets $111, BTN calls $111, BB calls $111

      Turn: K:heart: ($827, 3 players)
      BB checks, HERO checks, BTN checks

      River: 3:diamond: ($827, 3 players)
      BB checks, HERO checks, BTN checks

      Both players good regs, playing quite loosely.

      Do u try bluffing postflop here ? Or just giving up right on the flop ?
      I think BU preflop range is QQ+,AK. BB could be calling here with a lot of trash, but hands like QQ,AK,KK still possible.

      I was considering shoving the river, but BU could have AK there sometimes and maybe even KK or AA. Maybe betting small 3 streets could be an option, any thoughts ?
  • 11 replies
    • booomm
      booomm
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      why do you 5 bet pre ?( ? any reads ?

      BB range is so wide I guess, BTN is 99+, I don't think he would call AK on the flop makes no sens.
      shoving river is def best option, only hands that might call are KK, 55, 66.. I don't see how can anyone of them could have AK considering flop action, and AK is never calling a river shove anyway.
      so shoving river is the best option I think considering action on flop and turn. depends heavily on your table image though.

      but if I were you I would just abondon flop unless I think they are both really out of line preflop+flop.
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      Spots like don't come up very often so we are going to need way better reads than just loose.

      If I had to break this spot down I would say btn's range for over calling prob looks something like TT-AA AKs? prob not even TT but you said they are playing loosely. I think BB range is probably a bit wider and is calling with stuff like Axs getting odds to call.

      As far as flop goes, I think it's a mistake to bet slightly over 1/5 pot here. I think you should bet slightly under half pot and jam good turns for us if you plan on bluffing here which I think this is gonna be the best board to do it on and to maximize fold equity. When you bet so little they get the right price to continue with entire range.

      I personally don't hate the 5bet preflop in a spot like this but on the flop you either have to give up or try to maximize ur FE imo. please pm me results if you can.
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      shoving river has got to be terrible, we never have KK here and we would never play it like this. unless we are trying to rep exactly like a3 which if one of them has an A they can figure out there is only A3ss combo possible. I think with the 5bet we are pretty much repping like AA or Axss for a bluff and maybe something like QKss?

      I think BB won this pot but not 100% sure.
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      Been thinking some more about this and I think I like betting $222ish on the flop leaving us with $564 on the turn that we can jam on every spade below J, any 4, any 7, any 8 if just one of them calls us but I can't decide how to play if both call, best is prob checking but i would be tempted to prob jam 4s/7s/9s and maybe 2s?

      Also I think it's better for us if btn folds and bb calls since I think btn has a stronger range than bb. After some more thinking I feel like btn has like QQ-KK AKs so I think against him we can only jam good turns.

      But if the bb calls I think maybe we can jam all blanks below J or T and expect hero folds from QQ-KK a decent amount unless he thinks you are completely out of line. Also I kind of ruled out AA from bb's range so I feel like we still have 3 outs if called so that's why I'm willing to jam blanks vs him.

      thoughts on my assumptions etc?
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      actually if I had to narrow it down even more I would say btn had like exactly QQ and bb probably had either QQ/A4/KK imo. Doubt either of them had AK but I guess I would put in the btn's range before bb's range. Most likely both had QQ and you are curious if you could have won the pot somehow :p.

      Anyway I'm just rambling on now but it would help if you would post some reads/their stats for the session/how they normally play what kind of ranges you think they have etc. If my assumptions are correct I think I like my plan and it should be +EV vs good regs capable of hero folding.
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      No any specific reads for BB, but BU 3bets me super wide from these positions. At least 15%, I've seen him doing it with KQo+,99+ for value and of course with a lot of crap as bluff. Also he was floating my cbet in 4bet pot OOP with QJ on something like Txx. So I wouldn't give him any credit for something very strong here as well, but he's capable of calling down super lite.

      I'm betting so small on the flop because my idea was to 3barrel for something like 1/4 pot all streets, that usually works very well for me, but yeah, I haven't done it against 2 players that often. I think it's the best line on this board, I'd play AA same way. This board looks pretty safe for me, very unlikely it hits their range, maybe bb's a little bit. Probably shoulda bet that turn again for something like $220 and shove the river. I'd have done it against 1 player, but against 2 it was a little bit scary, but actually it could work even better IMO.
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      If he really overcalls that light then I'm obv giving him wrong ranges but I would expect most people in the games I play to be fairly tight in this spot vs a 5 bet.
      So you think 3 streets here is better than 2 streets? I mean I can see how since smaller bets should keep their range wider but I also think you are giving them correct odds to draw and perhaps losing value.
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      I think betting turn vs 2 is probably too aggro. Curiosity is killing me though so would be cool if you could pm me results please :)
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Find your balls and bet turn, its only bbs :)

      They continue with solely AA/KK ott, and have to have slowplayed to a certain extent both pre flop and the flop.

      We have like 700 into 830 ott.

      We are only repping AA for value pre flop/flop, the K smashes the other part of our range that is a lot bigger, all of the Kx.

      Maybe check back turn and then half pot river could be sexier?

      Like if somebody checks back this turn and then $300-400 otr, they almost always have a value hand.
    • booomm
      booomm
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      Originally posted by pleno1
      Find your balls and bet turn, its only bbs :)

      They continue with solely AA/KK ott, and have to have slowplayed to a certain extent both pre flop and the flop.

      We have like 700 into 830 ott.

      We are only repping AA for value pre flop/flop, the K smashes the other part of our range that is a lot bigger, all of the Kx.

      Maybe check back turn and then half pot river could be sexier?

      Like if somebody checks back this turn and then $300-400 otr, they almost always have a value hand.
      you don't think bb could be calling with 55 or 66+some funky hands? I thought it is much more likely then AA/KK
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      we can figure out all of the spew boxes on this forum very quickly :p