[NL20-NL50] NL50sh - AJs vs aggro guy

    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Hey all,

      Villain: 24/18/200h 3b from btn: 4/17 3b vs hero: 1/24 3b vs mp: 3/23
      I don't remember any dynamics between us.

      Postflop he is also aggro (4.2af) and cbets 71%

      I do not know how he reacts to a 4bet.

      Is it OK to 4b vs aggro from mp these hands as bluff: AJ, AQ, KQ and going broke with JJ+, AK?

      Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2046753
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      UTG: $81.94
      Hero (MP): $50.00
      CO: $64.85
      BTN: $91.94
      SB: $19.46
      BB: $95.79

      Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is MP with J :heart: A :heart:
      1 fold, Hero raises to $1.50, 1 fold, BTN raises to $4.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $11, BTN calls $6.50

      Flop: ($22.75) 8 :spade: T :club: K :club: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN checks

      Turn: ($22.75) 5 :spade: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $13, Hero folds
  • 11 replies
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      I would call AJs mostly cos it is pretty much the best hand for calling vs 3bets. But if u are not so sure how to play pstflop then turning it into a 4b bluff is fine.

      I think ur postflop line is fine since he probably doesnt fold too much on this texture.
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      I think you should have two different game plans to defending 3 bets.

      vs tag



      vs lag

      Try coming up with one on your own and I will post after saying if I disagree or agree and help you fix it to the extent where I think it's decent.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Originally posted by mbml
      I would call AJs mostly cos it is pretty much the best hand for calling vs 3bets. But if u are not so sure how to play pstflop then turning it into a 4b bluff is fine.

      I think ur postflop line is fine since he probably doesnt fold too much on this texture.
      That's why I don't call 3B OOP :P I just don't think I can make profit with it. Maybe you should make a vid about it :P


      I think you should have two different game plans to defending 3 bets.

      vs tag



      vs lag

      Try coming up with one on your own and I will post after saying if I disagree or agree and help you fix it to the extent where I think it's decent
      .

      Hey serverm! Tbh I'm almost never calling a 3B oop but mostly 4b or fold. I think vs TAGS it's good to 4bet or fold. Vs lags maybe call QKs, AQs, AJs, 99-JJ?
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      You are not getting out of this that easily. Obv you don't really have a game plan or any idea why doing something is good/bad. Right now your plan is to never call 3bets because you are scared to play oop basically.

      Imo start by thinking about what their ranges for 3betting for value and as a bluff would look like, (obv different players have different ranges but in general it will be close enough) Then think about what their range for getting it in will look like.

      Then obv from there think about how they play postflop and try to come up with something more detailed. Also have you watched internet's video on preflop math, if not I would start there before working on this.

      It's also very important to keep in mind your RFI% from that position and how the villain perceives you, game flow, etc.

      From there come up with a better answer, think of this a poker hw. get it done.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      I'm gonna try!!!!! :D

      With PF maths you prob mean this:
      3bet - 67% need them to fold around 2/3 time. std 3bb/9bb, if they fold more than 67% then we are showing an immediate profit

      4bet - 60%

      5bet - 45% (with pocket pairs and Axs which have decent equity)

      5bet - 55% with completely random hand



      But what you want me to do? Vs TAGS or vs LAGS? Do you mean with this that a TAG 3bets less? And do you want me to make a gameplan for playing vs 3B OOP from MP (or in general)? How can I make a general gameplan??? People 3B other ranges vs each position.

      Hopefully a quick answer ;)

      Tnx
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      Hold on I'm about to eat and will respond after.
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      Ok obv I could write a 3+ page essay on this however I'm not going to :D but instead I will try to post as much info as I can so you can make decisions by yourself. Keep in mind I have been grinding for 7 hours straight now and I'm terrible at math. Small brag: http://gyazo.com/8136e11eb2adcd231b0d3d392c7efc15

      Anyway so when we open to 3x and get 3bet by someone to 9x so we need to defend 33% of our opening range by either calling or 4betting so if we open 15% we need to defend 5% to not get exploited given they 3bet a balanced range ( same amount of bluffs as value), if they wanted to be retarded and 3bet 2% or 15% for example then we adjust accordingly. So then any hand that we can defend outside that range profitably is just gravy.

      So the most important thing to understand which I'm pretty sure you do is MP vs UTG and BTN vs CO are very different for obvious reasons. So basically from there the more we know about what kind of a range they are 3betting and how aggro they are postflop the better we can play.

      So for example if I'm facing a 3bet in EP from LP, vs lag we can 4bet bluff way more cus usually our range in EP>their range and people's 3bet range is just so bluff heavy usually, and once we abuse them a bit with 4betting then we can profitably 4bet JJ+ AK+ for value if we can expect them to spazz. The key is to be one step ahead of them and pay attention to the game flow/dynamics between you guys how they respond etc.

      Where as vs a tag that might 3bet me like 6% for example, I don't want to 4bet/fold JJ so it's way more +EV to call because we can usually x/c two and decide river+ we can hit some sets and stack them and I would 4bet bluff way less. In general I think this spot is kind of easy sort of to speak cus our range in ep is fairly tight so it's not going to be too hard dealing with 3bets.

      However co vs btn for example our range is wide and so is theirs. A lot of people like to 3bet stuff like J7 etc so flatting a hand like JKss or AJss becomes much more profitable than 4betting it. given they will barrel a lot and we will be up against a range that we often dominate. So basically the point is the more we understand what kind of hands they are 3betting the better we can adjust. Where as in the previous example if someone was playing very tight on the btn and 3betting say 8% for example I would much rather 4bet JKss.

      This was supposed to be longer with more math and stuff but I'm getting kind of sleepy and losing focus, plus it would prob be better if someone with better knowledge of math wrote about this.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Keep in mind I have been grinding for 7 hours straight now and I'm terrible at math. Small brag: http://gyazo.com/8136e11eb2adcd231b0d3d392c7efc15


      Wow vvvn :D . Grats ;) . NL200? Nice red line. I just lost 4BI in my session X( , I'll post some hands later.


      Anyway so when we open to 3x and get 3bet by someone to 9x so we need to defend 33% of our opening range by either calling or 4betting so if we open 15% we need to defend 5% to not get exploited given they 3bet a balanced range ( same amount of bluffs as value), if they wanted to be retarded and 3bet 2% or 15% for example then we adjust accordingly. So then any hand that we can defend outside that range profitably is just gravy.

      So the most important thing to understand which I'm pretty sure you do is MP vs UTG and BTN vs CO are very different for obvious reasons. So basically from there the more we know about what kind of a range they are 3betting and how aggro they are postflop the better we can play.


      Yes that is clear!


      So for example if I'm facing a 3bet in EP from LP, vs lag we can 4bet bluff way more cus usually our range in EP>their range and people's 3bet range is just so bluff heavy usually, and once we abuse them a bit with 4betting then we can profitably 4bet JJ+ AK+ for value if we can expect them to spazz. The key is to be one step ahead of them and pay attention to the game flow/dynamics between you guys how they respond etc.


      That's the hard part for me :rolleyes:


      Where as vs a tag that might 3bet me like 6% for example, I don't want to 4bet/fold JJ so it's way more +EV to call because we can usually x/c two and decide river+ we can hit some sets and stack them and I would 4bet bluff way less. In general I think this spot is kind of easy sort of to speak cus our range in ep is fairly tight so it's not going to be too hard dealing with 3bets.


      Yes that's also my thinking.


      However co vs btn for example our range is wide and so is theirs. A lot of people like to 3bet stuff like J7 etc so flatting a hand like JKss or AJss becomes much more profitable than 4betting it. given they will barrel a lot and we will be up against a range that we often dominate. So basically the point is the more we understand what kind of hands they are 3betting the better we can adjust. Where as in the previous example if someone was playing very tight on the btn and 3betting say 8% for example I would much rather 4bet JKss.


      Yes, this also makes sense but I find it still hard to make profit with AJs OOP without initiative because we don't always hit.


      This was supposed to be longer with more math and stuff but I'm getting kind of sleepy and losing focus, plus it would prob be better if someone with better knowledge of math wrote about this.


      Np, thank you! We can always discuss on skype. I PM'd you.
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      There are guys out there that are just simply too aggressive way out of line. They will 3bet something like 12% and then just mindlessly cbet like every time so we can own them even without initiative.

      for example: we have AJhh and get 3bet by btn when we are co, so many good boards for us.

      flop comes Th2h4c, we have few options we can x/c or we can x/r, both options have their pros and cons. I can go in detail if you like.

      flop comes Axx we can almost always x/c twice/decide river cus people just always barrel this board.

      flop comes Th2c9s we can x/r and rep TT/99 pretty well and jam on a heart Q/8. maybe even AT for value.

      flop comes TQx, we can x/c and reverse float and expect to get barreled on when we hit. or win the pot on the river if it goes x/x.

      basically the point is we don't have to have initiative and can own people oop if they are being too aggro.
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      also it took me like 5 days to figure out I had a pm from internet cus I didn't know how to work this site but i'm getting better lol.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Well explained thanks again :D

      Active on 2p2?