Push fold strategy profitability in 1$ SNG

    • bartez
      bartez
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2008 Posts: 1
      Hi,

      I'm wondering if the push/fold strategy (when stack <13BB) is the right one for 1$ + 0.20$ SNGs.

      My personal experience is that in these SNGs a lot of times your push gets called with a wide range of hands, leading most of the time to coin flip situations eg (A9o vs 33 ; ATo vs KQo).

      My impression is also that a Push has no larger folding equity than a raise of lets say 3or4BB.

      In my opinion you take less risk with a raise than with a push. Maybe I'm overlooking something so feedback is more than welcome

      regards,
      bartez
  • 7 replies
    • Duane317
      Duane317
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.12.2007 Posts: 76
      When you're less than 13BB, it's really crippling to your stack if you fold after you've raised 4BB. You'll be left with just 9BB.

      So just push and hope for the best. Although thats just my opinion :)
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Also look from other point of view. You are in MP with 13BB stack, raise 4BB. Pot is now 5,5BB, other guy from late position pushes all in and lets imagine he has you covered. So pot is 18,5BB now and it takes you remaining 9BB to call. Thats roughly 2:1 pot odds so you need ~33% equity. Now lets imagine you had AQ. I dont have equilator or other equity calculating programms with me at the moment but i think you get neccessary equity. You are way behind only AA, QQ, AK KK. I think even AJ could be hand to make such call with as in that stage ppl often push A with low kicker. Not sure about AJ situation tho.

      And now, if you think you would have good enough odds to make such call or for any other reason would have to call all in re raise then it is better to shove first because it gives you bigger fold equity and can win hand without seeing flop. If you raise it to 4BB you give yourself another exit in case someone comes over the top. So if you raise 4BB then be ready to throw your hand away, if you dont plan to do that then shove it instead of raising.
    • masfe
      masfe
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.01.2007 Posts: 3,319
      ICM always works, but usually SNGwiz for example give people a very low calling range compared to 1.2$'s. Just like if you watch an higher buy-in video. You just have to adapt to their calling range, and start folding some hands that you would push on a normal calling range on the villan.


      If you go to SNGwiz and put yourself on the SB usually people push any2. But if you use for example a calling range of 50-60% on the BB, it will tell you to fold probably 50% of the hands.
    • JD888
      JD888
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.04.2007 Posts: 55
      raising 4BB at the stages where push/fold is about to begin is a big mistake. while raising 3BB is the suggested standard raise during the first stages you should tend to raise 2,5BB when blinds become higher.
      you benefit from your smaller raises in the way that you don't commit yourself pre-flop with your 13BB for example and you have to make smaller continuation bets. on such low limits a 4BB raise doesn't increase your fold equity very much so don't give away more chips as needed.
      pushing directly with 13BB is crap because you can easily find a fold if someone pushes and your holding isn't very nice which will still leave you with some tournament equity and you are still on a stack which generates some fold equity in case of a push. open push, or pushing after 1 limper is the right play with 10BB because a standard raise would make no sense.
    • AquamanBT
      AquamanBT
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 338
      Well, if you've been playing correctly your cards when you're above 24BB or between 13-24BB, if you happen to get down to 13BB you should be playing in the bubble or very close. Most people at these levels will fold almost everything when in the bubble and facing a 13BB push.
    • slikec
      slikec
      Global
      Joined: 04.02.2008 Posts: 1,155
      As coaches say you have to observe players on your table. I know you don't see many hands from them and is damn hard to see them if you multitable but you soon see who is extra tight who is good tight(know quite good ranges) and to lose and try to use it in your advantage. I usually start playing 9 1+0,2$ SNG and well as i saw i finish in last 3 on average in 2,5 of them and in last 5 in half of them so than i can observe more carefully how often they push and so you get their range(you have to also take their stack into calculation since short stackers push more). I am quite good at getting their ranges so i am ahead most of time when i call and behind when they call(because if you have really TAG player on your table with middle stack you have to push against him is good EV+ late stage since he will call only JJ+AQ+).

      Anyway to tell you that last 5 heads up i get to i lost all 5 of them and realyl crazy stuff(in most we had quite same stack):
      A5o vs 72s
      A3s vs 45o
      KJs vs 97o i remember.

      Anyway without rake i would have some profit with 20% rake i am break even :D
    • sirilidion
      sirilidion
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 1,575
      Originally posted by marcof3
      ICM always works, but usually SNGwiz for example give people a very low calling range compared to 1.2$'s. Just like if you watch an higher buy-in video. You just have to adapt to their calling range, and start folding some hands that you would push on a normal calling range on the villan.


      If you go to SNGwiz and put yourself on the SB usually people push any2. But if you use for example a calling range of 50-60% on the BB, it will tell you to fold probably 50% of the hands.
      I totally agree with marcof3. Push or fold still works at the $ 1,2 limits but you gor to push a bid tighter then SNGwiz advises because people call you're pushes looser then SNGwiz give them credit for. I think the $ 3 sessionreview part 2 by helemaalnicks give you a good view at the way you can play at endstage in a sng at that limit