[NL2-NL10] NL5 SH - AKs top pair FD

    • painterman007
      painterman007
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.05.2009 Posts: 82
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.05(BB) Replayer
      SB ($6.67)
      Hero ($5)
      UTG ($5.49)
      UTG+1 ($6.28)
      CO ($3.65)
      BTN ($5)

      Dealt to Hero A:spade: K:spade:

      fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.15, SB raises to $0.90, Hero calls $0.85, fold

      FLOP ($1.95) A:club: Q:spade: 2:spade:

      SB bets $1.95 Hero?

      A call is the right move here, right? He might continue his betting with weaker hands, and we have excellent equity vs his made hands and draws. I feel pushing would only make him able to fold hands like TT,JJ,99, JT and such that he is stubbord enough to hold on to, even though it feels pot committed so he would call the remaining 2$ with any 2.
  • 7 replies
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Hi Painterman,

      Preflop: Why are we cold calling such a huge 3-bet from SB? Do we know anything about this player? He 3-bets 18 BB almost as big as a 4-bet. If we think our hand is doing that great versus his range we should 4-bet.

      As played I'd just shove it there as we have a lot of equity and not a ton of money behind (since we have 0 info on the guy). If you do have info and feel that he can bluff the rest of his money on the turn (or put it in with a hand that would otherwise fold) calling is fine too.
    • painterman007
      painterman007
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.05.2009 Posts: 82
      Sorry, I forgot to add stats!
      BTN: 27/22 seemingly a reg opening, probably opening loose from BTN
      SB is 49/15 with 19 % 3bet over 40 hands, and thus I think he is quite LAG, and decide much of his range would be dominated as he would call with KJ, AJ, KQ, even K7s, Q9s etc.
      The only hand in his range that I think beats me is AQ, but I still have decent equity vs this. He would do this with pocket pairs aswell, but not the lowest, so 22 is not a threat.

      I thought about what you said about 4betting if we think we are doing good vs his range, and this is something I struggle with grasping and I would like if you had some article/video or explanation of your own. At the micros in particular you want to bet, bet bet, right? Yes, but when you raise, aren't you forcing a lot of weak holdings that would give more value out of the hand?

      Example:
      We are are bet into by a villain but his range contains alot of weak holdings, such as second pair and draws, and we hold something like TPTK. I feel like raisin would get him to fold TPBK, because even though he quite a poor player, he doesnt feel comfortable, and a raise is scary to him. Thus a bet would force out "valuable" hands to us, and keep his valueble hands mostly (1pair+SD, 2pair etc), meaning a bigger part of our future investments in the pot will go to him in the long run (or even tip the scale in his favor entirely) as turn and river bets are much bigger than preflop and flop.
    • Alan883
      Alan883
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2008 Posts: 1,941
      You paid a lot to see a flop. If he first cBet on missed board (you have to know that mostly you will miss it) you have to fold and you loose quite a lot.

      Otherwise if you think he is able to do and he is such a maniac i dont see a reason why not to shove preflop?? Why calling vs a range you know you are ahead??
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by painterman007
      Sorry, I forgot to add stats!
      BTN: 27/22 seemingly a reg opening, probably opening loose from BTN
      SB is 49/15 with 19 % 3bet over 40 hands, and thus I think he is quite LAG, and decide much of his range would be dominated as he would call with KJ, AJ, KQ, even K7s, Q9s etc.
      The only hand in his range that I think beats me is AQ, but I still have decent equity vs this. He would do this with pocket pairs aswell, but not the lowest, so 22 is not a threat.

      I thought about what you said about 4betting if we think we are doing good vs his range, and this is something I struggle with grasping and I would like if you had some article/video or explanation of your own. At the micros in particular you want to bet, bet bet, right? Yes, but when you raise, aren't you forcing a lot of weak holdings that would give more value out of the hand?

      Example:
      We are are bet into by a villain but his range contains alot of weak holdings, such as second pair and draws, and we hold something like TPTK. I feel like raisin would get him to fold TPBK, because even though he quite a poor player, he doesnt feel comfortable, and a raise is scary to him. Thus a bet would force out "valuable" hands to us, and keep his valueble hands mostly (1pair+SD, 2pair etc), meaning a bigger part of our future investments in the pot will go to him in the long run (or even tip the scale in his favor entirely) as turn and river bets are much bigger than preflop and flop.
      Hi Paiterman,

      While in general raising TPTK may fold the weaker hands we have to look at the information in front of us:

      A) Fishy guy 3-bets large.
      B) Fishy guy pot cbets a flop committing more than half his stack.

      Based on that we can assume that he is on at least a hand that he likes and will rarely fold (for just $2 more).


      Now back to our preflop decision. You said that villain is fishy and 3-bets a lot. Our hand is great versus his wide range and we should 4-bet for value. You can make it small, like $2 to entice him to stick around (if we are afraid he folds).

      You think that a guy like him 3-bets big and then folds to our 4-bet? Or were we afraid to stack off preflop?
    • painterman007
      painterman007
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.05.2009 Posts: 82
      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      A) Fishy guy 3-bets large.
      B) Fishy guy pot cbets a flop committing more than half his stack.
      Based on that we can assume that he is on at least a hand that he likes and will rarely fold (for just $2 more).
      Yes, this is what concerns me. He likes his hand very much, meaning it is likely very strong. This might be KQs+, AJo+, JJ+. And that is why I'm concerned with raising it here, because he might realise that his hand is not good enough and he is left with QQ+ and AQ+. Even though we are still ahead vs this range, (which for some reason surprised me a bit, I guess the flushdraw has a bigger impact than I throught), aren't we "blocking" hands like JJ and KQ to think they might still be good? Since we have position, I feel he would likely push to continue on the turn because the pot is already so big.
    • painterman007
      painterman007
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.05.2009 Posts: 82
      Originally posted by Alan883
      You paid a lot to see a flop. If he first cBet on missed board (you have to know that mostly you will miss it) you have to fold and you loose quite a lot.

      Otherwise if you think he is able to do and he is such a maniac i dont see a reason why not to shove preflop?? Why calling vs a range you know you are ahead??
      Yes, I see now it is quite a big bet, but I felt that he often has a dominated range, which could lead to big implied odds, but looking back, he put a fifth of the effective stack in, so I guess it wasnt so huge after all.

      Thank you both!
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by painterman007
      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      A) Fishy guy 3-bets large.
      B) Fishy guy pot cbets a flop committing more than half his stack.
      Based on that we can assume that he is on at least a hand that he likes and will rarely fold (for just $2 more).
      Yes, this is what concerns me. He likes his hand very much, meaning it is likely very strong. This might be KQs+, AJo+, JJ+. And that is why I'm concerned with raising it here, because he might realise that his hand is not good enough and he is left with QQ+ and AQ+. Even though we are still ahead vs this range, (which for some reason surprised me a bit, I guess the flushdraw has a bigger impact than I throught), aren't we "blocking" hands like JJ and KQ to think they might still be good? Since we have position, I feel he would likely push to continue on the turn because the pot is already so big.
      Why can we valuebet a lot vs fish? Because they play their hand rather than anything else. It doesn't matter what you have.
      Since so much money went in already he will almost always call you here with anything and since the SPR is so small on the turn it doesn't give him a chance to "continue bluffing".

      You on the other hand have to play his range and make a decision based on that. All factors point to a hand he likes so why not oblige him and get the money in now?