4Betting range and bet sizing for NL 25

    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      I'm still "taking a shot" at NL 25, and the following situation keeps cropping up:

      Party, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

      SB: $26.20 (104.8 bb)
      MP: $35.64 (142.6 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $31.63 (126.5 bb)
      CO: $25 (100 bb)
      BB: $27.33 (109.3 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with 8 8
      2 folds, Hero raises to $0.60, SB raises to $2.25, BB folds, Hero raises to $6.40, SB folds

      I used to call re-steal 3Bets, but even in position, it is hard to decide what to do when the flop is ugly.

      Since I saw Patrick's coaching, I've been 4Betting some hands, and folding some I would have otherwise flatted on the resteal.

      Almost everyone I encounter at this limit is unknown -- I myself have only about 5.5K hands here.

      I've been 4Betting about 2.5x the 3Bet.
      Hands so far 4Bet are AK, AQ and 88+


      So the questions in general:
      what would be a generally sensible 4-Bet range?
      What would be a sensible bet size in these spots?

      I've also tried a few 4Bets in the CO when the BTN defends, but with less success. By that I mean that BTNs have been less willing to fold to 4Bets, not that I've been losing the hands overall.

      Thanks
      --VS
  • 20 replies
    • Th334
      Th334
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      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Hi Vorpal,

      I don't know much about the subject (though I'm interested in it as well), but it seems to me that by 4betting 88-JJ we are turning these hands into a bluff. I.e., the villain will continue only with stronger hands and will fold all weaker hands.

      It also seems to me that we should adjust to each villain in each situation separately, and not just blindly 4bet 88 without a good reason for it. Some guys are aggro postflop and give us a hard time, and some guys are fit/fold or one-and-done.

      Looking froward to read what others think :)

      German
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      don't 4bet unless you are willing to call a shove with those mid pairs. If not I rather just 4bet AX; at least AX has a blocker

      Definitely tough to play 88 and 99 on various flops by calling vs a 3bet but
      1) We can semi set-mine
      2) Even when we don't hit we can call on a bunch of flops where we have decent showdown value.
    • jonnyjm
      jonnyjm
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      Joined: 24.03.2008 Posts: 447
      I think your better off flatting 3bets with your PP's and 4betting with the top of your range + hands you can fold easily if 5 bet, eg: Blockers + some random hands that don't have much value. Be sure to keep a 50-50 or 55-45 ratio between trash hands and value hands.
    • Th334
      Th334
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      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Actually, are you talking about value 4B range?

      Then I would imagine that at least AQ is very read dependent. You will almost never 4B AQ for value, unless you are up against some maniac, tilting fish or very loose-aggressive guy.

      My default assumption is that unknown regulars do not go broke preflop with AJ+,KQ,TT+ on any [micro] limit.

      PS: even against such a range our AQ should be suited to break-even without the rake.
    • Lucker9200
      Lucker9200
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      Joined: 18.06.2010 Posts: 271
      betsizing 2.1x-2.5x(sometimes up to 3x vs weak players who never fold) When you are 4bet bluffing the idea is to make it as cheap as possible and you should bet enough to make the opponent go into a push/fold mode vs your 4bets and if hes doing that you are not missing out any value with your premium hands
      - my preferred sizing is around 2.3x ip cause its usually enough and i guess 2.5x oop is advisable since you will have quite a tough time if your opponent decides to call
      hands to 4bet with
      - for value its really villain dependant but JJ+,AK in CO,BU should be fine as a standard and KK+ in UTG,MP
      -as a bluff generally you want to be 4betting Ax,Kx because of the blockers - I personally think of the best Ax,Kx I am not flatting the 3bet in a certain spot and 4bet them (for example if I am CO and BU 3bets me and I have decided that I will be flatting AQ in such a spot then Id probably wait for AJ-AT and 4bet these vs him)

      some more info
      don't 4bet/f for value like ever cause you have to expect the villain to call a 4b with worse holding but not push it which will rarely be the case.
      your 4bets have more FE when you and your opponent are slightly deepstacked for example 140bb deep your opponent might decide not to stack off with hand like AKo,JJ
      pocket pairs(99- usually) and SC are not good hands to 4bet w because they are no different than any two unless it comes to a situation where you see a flop
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      No need to 4bet bigger than 2x while in position without history of villain being flat happy OOP.

      And yea, don't 4bet 88 vs unknown. Stacking off w no history will be burning money here. 4bet bluff with blockers to default perceived villains 5bet shoving range, it may not seem like much but actually they make a huge difference.
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      hands to 4bet with
      - for value its really villain dependant but JJ+,AK in CO,BU should be fine as a standard and KK+ in UTG,MP

      If JJ is a value 4bet, then the opponent must 5bet-shove with hands like AJ, KQ, and 99 all the time for us to earn something.

      If this is a standard play by most people at your tables, I can't imagine with what loose players stack preflop -- perhaps I open from UTG tighter :f_biggrin:

      Seems miles away from how I imagine NL25.
    • Lucker9200
      Lucker9200
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      Joined: 18.06.2010 Posts: 271
      Originally posted by Th334
      hands to 4bet with
      - for value its really villain dependant but JJ+,AK in CO,BU should be fine as a standard and KK+ in UTG,MP

      If JJ is a value 4bet, then the opponent must 5bet-shove with hands like AJ, KQ, and 99 all the time for us to earn something.

      If this is a standard play by most people at your tables, I can't imagine with what loose players stack preflop -- perhaps I open from UTG tighter :f_biggrin:

      Seems miles away from how I imagine NL25.
      What range must the opponent be 5bet-shoving with for us to earn something by 4betting AK - what do you think of that? :)
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by Th334
      hands to 4bet with
      - for value its really villain dependant but JJ+,AK in CO,BU should be fine as a standard and KK+ in UTG,MP

      If JJ is a value 4bet, then the opponent must 5bet-shove with hands like AJ, KQ, and 99 all the time for us to earn something.

      If this is a standard play by most people at your tables, I can't imagine with what loose players stack preflop -- perhaps I open from UTG tighter :f_biggrin:

      Seems miles away from how I imagine NL25.
      It's not exactly the way we should construct our default 4bet value/4bet bluffing ranges.

      We can't know exact ranges of every villain, what we do know however is our raising range and how frequently we get to defend vs villains 3bet in order to deny him from printing money against us preflop by 3betting any two.

      Based on that we can construct ourselves a 4betting range which consists of bluffs and value hands. Value hands being the ones that we will call a shove frequently enough for villain not to be able to make money against us by 5bet bluffing.
    • Th334
      Th334
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      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Okay, I see :)

      Well, I still have no idea exactly how to make such a range.

      What do you think about 4bet/going broke from CO, BU with QQ+,AKs on NL5? Is it still spewing money against 95% of the opponents, who do not 5-bet bluff?
    • Lucker9200
      Lucker9200
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      Joined: 18.06.2010 Posts: 271
      Basically you need to have information about the exact ranges of the open raiser and the defender and also the exact sizings of the raises both players are using to make a mathematically optimal range but in reality you dont have that much info + players are not 100% consistant + you dont need an optimal range to be playing +EV(if you still want to know exactly how just google "donkr optimal game theory") , the information there is really useless at nl5 imo but what you should understand at that point is that when you are stacking off with AK,JJ,QQ its not because you expect to be ahead of opps shoving range but because you have a decent % equity against his stacking range + you win $ from his bluffs (3b bluffs,5b spews/bluffs) so its somewhat a semi-bluff (=> the more bluffs the opponent has the more Ok it becomes to stack off lighter w AQ,TT+)

      about your second question - on nl5 QQ+,AK in CO,BU sounds perfect because some players are weak enough to not stack off only with the premium holdings but also to stackoff with hands like 88-TT,AQ and there are people who do occasionally bluff 3bet but if you think that someone is really 3betting as nitty as you think they are and their ranges consist of 3b% <2% over a decent sample not only you shouldnt stack off w AK,QQ but also you shouldnt 4bet bluff at all versus such opponents
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Originally posted by mbml
      don't 4bet unless you are willing to call a shove with those mid pairs. If not I rather just 4bet AX; at least AX has a blocker

      Definitely tough to play 88 and 99 on various flops by calling vs a 3bet but
      1) We can semi set-mine
      2) Even when we don't hit we can call on a bunch of flops where we have decent showdown value.
      Thanks -- good points.

      Up to this point, I haven't seen a 5-Bet shove, and only a couple of times my 4-Bet even got called.

      I was trying to think in terms of my hand's equity vs a sensible re-steal range,
      I used Equilab, and the PokerStrategy.com BU open raising range -- Staandard is :
      22+, A2s+, K7s+, Q7s+, J7s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, A2o+, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o

      This range has at least 40% equity against that range:
      22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J4s+,T6s+,96s+,87s,76s,A2o+,K2o+,Q5o+,J8o+,T8o+

      So let's use that as BB resteal range.
      I then looked at what range has at least 40% equity vs THAT range:
      And equilab returns:
      22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q3s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K2o+,Q7o+,J9o+,T9o

      Which was WAY too loose for me, so I thought as a starting point I would use:
      88+ with some 66,77 as bluffs. and
      ATo+, KJ+ and maybe some others vs players that 3Bet a lot.

      So it looks like the consensus here is:
      JJ+ AQ+ to 4bet for value, and maybe some 99-TT AT-AJ as bluffs, and set mine smaller PP

      Thanks for all the input,
      I'll start with that, and see where it goes...
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      NL25 is full of sissies that will wet their pants as soon as they get 4bet. :f_biggrin: They will be more likely to flat your 4bets than shove light imo so I'd construct my 4betting range from hands that 1) have blockers, 2) good playability postflop which is sooted Ax/Kx stuff, offsuit broadways that I'm not comfortable calling with yet.

      hands like 99/TT are meh 4bet bluffing hands as well imo. You are better off flatting those when IP and folding OOP.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by Th334
      Okay, I see :)

      Well, I still have no idea exactly how to make such a range.

      What do you think about 4bet/going broke from CO, BU with QQ+,AKs on NL5? Is it still spewing money against 95% of the opponents, who do not 5-bet bluff?
      It's more or less never spewing money to stack off with QQ in these positions, even vs opponent who only stacks off with AA. Sure it will be -EV but the situation will occur so infrequently that it won't affect your winrate almost at all. And you still may show profit if he 3bets wide but then only continues w AA. :f_biggrin:

      Sure doesn't mean that you should blindly go all in w QQ vs someone you preceive as a nit, but no point in beating yourself over stacking off vs KK of unknown player in these positions.
    • Th334
      Th334
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      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Good stuff, thanks folks.

      Another quick question, you divide your ranges on UTG/MP and CO/BU parts.

      It is your position, right? But it seems to me that we should also take into account the raisers position.

      F.e.,
      • we are in MP and BU 3bets --> looser range
      • we are in MP and SB 3bets --> tighter range (OOP)

      On the other hand, folks on blinds tend to 3bet more, because they cannot flat as profitably as BU can.

      So I'm kinda confused a bit :)

      We also have SB vs BB situations, but I'd assume they are similar to CO/BU ones.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      Originally posted by Th334
      hands to 4bet with
      - for value its really villain dependant but JJ+,AK in CO,BU should be fine as a standard and KK+ in UTG,MP

      If JJ is a value 4bet, then the opponent must 5bet-shove with hands like AJ, KQ, and 99 all the time for us to earn something.
      this is very untrue.

      When you 4bet to lets say 25BB, you are being offered odds of 75/200 = 37.5% So your JJ only needs to have 37.5% equity vs villain's shoving range.

      If you just add AQ and TT it's more than enough to 4bet JJ and call it off here. Maybe even just adding TT makes it possible for us to 4bet JJ for value.
    • Th334
      Th334
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      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Originally posted by mbml
      Originally posted by Th334
      hands to 4bet with
      - for value its really villain dependant but JJ+,AK in CO,BU should be fine as a standard and KK+ in UTG,MP

      If JJ is a value 4bet, then the opponent must 5bet-shove with hands like AJ, KQ, and 99 all the time for us to earn something.
      this is very untrue.

      When you 4bet to lets say 25BB, you are being offered odds of 75/200 = 37.5% So your JJ only needs to have 37.5% equity vs villain's shoving range.

      If you just add AQ and TT it's more than enough to 4bet JJ and call it off here. Maybe even just adding TT makes it possible for us to 4bet JJ for value.
      Yeah, we need only 37.5% eq. to call a 5-bet, but we need 50% eq. against his pushing range to value 4-bet in the first place, no?

      So if his stacking range is TT+,AK+ (no 5-bet bluffs) we can't 4bet him with JJ for value, because he won't continue with weaker often enough (the definition of value).

      The other thing is, I assume his range will be sometimes polarized, including pure or semi-bluffs, so that we can't exploit him by 4-bet/folding any two.

      And the moment he starts jamming his bluffs, our jacks' eq. increases and it becomes a value 4B.

      At least that's how I understand it so far :f_biggrin: Where am I wrong?
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Yeah, we need only 37.5% eq. to call a 5-bet, but we need 50% eq. against his pushing range to value 4-bet in the first place, no?
      I have always thought that when I raise, whether open raise, 3Bet or 4Bet, I can expect a fold SOME % of the time.

      This can apply pre-or-post flop.

      Also, I only consider cash games. Tourneys with their additional bubble factors and what-not make my head spin.

      So,
      If you assume you have 40% equity against some villains range.
      How much does he have to fold, so that when you call his shove, you're break-even?

      I used to have a calculation for this, but I can't find it now.
      But in any case, if he folds even a third of the time vs a 4Bet, and calls the rest, it should be profitable.

      If you throw in the 5Bet shove, then there are some of those I would like fold, and some I would call.
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
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      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,002
      some people forget that even if you 4bet IP and opponents flat. your still making money in the long run because position + skill + initiative = $$$$$$$$$ and yes im quoting pleno on this one hehe
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