[NL20-NL50] Nl20 Sh 55

    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.20(BB) Replayer
      SB ($20.30)
      Hero ($20.30)
      UTG ($20)
      CO ($29.98)
      BTN ($9.30)

      Dealt to Hero 5:club: 5:spade:

      fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.50, fold, Hero calls $0.30

      FLOP ($1.10) 3:spade: 9:heart: 8:club:

      Hero bets $0.70, BTN calls $0.70

      TURN ($2.50) 3:spade: 9:heart: 8:club: T:heart:

      Hero checks, BTN bets $1.50, Hero folds

      BTN wins $2.38



      notes:
      vs passive fish - cheks till sd IP w QJo 6xxfd 5 A
      open w AQ, c/c 9xx 2/3, c/c 1/2 7 w A high, c/c 1/2 K w A high - STATION
      open UTG 2.5 bb w AKo, c/c 976 2/3, c/mr A w TP, call 3bet
      no cbet IP 542 vs fish w TT, call 2 bb A, call 2 bb 9 - MISS VALUE
      c/call flop 1/2 in unraised 3way T6xfd w K8s king high, c/c 1/2 8 w 2nd pair, c/c 1/2 K w 2 pair vs fish when flush posible
      open in CO w AQ, c/c 3 streets w overcards, river was K

      In game I was not having that many notes, so on flop I tested how does he folds to dobkbets, because from his cbet stat it looked that he will bluff me.
      I was thinking I have to bluff at some point because of his wide range in BTN.

      But taking a look at notes - he is so passive and bluffcatches with overcards, so I can check till showdown with weak pairs.
      Could be a value bet there, but bit thin to get value from overcards. But maybe he sees weakness and bluffs the turn. On the other hand - turn could be some value bet, because by the stats he is more passive than of flop.
  • 11 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      He raises 37% from BU. How does that range interacti with the board? What's your equity?

      I don't really understand this part:


      In game I was not having that many notes, so on flop I tested how does he folds to dobkbets, because from his cbet stat it looked that he will bluff me.
      I was thinking I have to bluff at some point because of his wide range in BTN.


      How do you choose which hand to donkbet? Why? How do you know he bluffs you from his cbet stat? If he is bluffing, why do you have to bluff him?
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      I have 48% eq on flop. He has often air, but also there are lot of str draws on this board.

      I was thinking - if he cbets - what do I do? He might have air but I don't kwno what to do with this weak pair. I had not analised this oponent that much yet.

      So I try donkbeting to look how does he folds. I was thinking he should fold his air and this is good for me - imediate profit. (Not knowing or not read the notes yet that he likes to call with overcards that much.)

      How do you know he bluffs you from his cbet stat?


      68% cbet its definitely not the value range. Lot of bluffs shoudl be.

      If he is bluffing, why do you have to bluff him?


      To have easy game :) as I said I don't know what to do with this weak pair. BUt c/f might be too weak and then I mmight not have enought implied odds to call preflop vs that steal wide range.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
      I have 48% eq on flop. He has often air, but also there are lot of str draws on this board.

      His draws are ahead of you or at least flipping + he has position. Draws >>> your hand. You can consider them value hands in this spot because of their playability and the non-playability of your hand if that term makes sense.

      I was thinking - if he cbets - what do I do? He might have air but I don't kwno what to do with this weak pair. I had not analised this oponent that much yet.

      What's his range? Not hand, range! How do you rate vs his range? You already said you are behind his range on the flop and he doesn't cbet all of his range.

      So I try donkbeting to look how does he folds. I was thinking he should fold his air and this is good for me - imediate profit. (Not knowing or not read the notes yet that he likes to call with overcards that much.)

      This is not really good. You are basically thinking: I have to win the pot. That thinking gets you to spewing. You should always think to win money/EV. If that's not possible you shouldn't try to win the pot either.

      How do you know he bluffs you from his cbet stat?


      68% cbet its definitely not the value range. Lot of bluffs shoudl be.

      Again, see above about range, not hand. :)

      If he is bluffing, why do you have to bluff him?


      To have easy game :) as I said I don't know what to do with this weak pair. BUt c/f might be too weak and then I mmight not have enought implied odds to call preflop vs that steal wide range.

      See what I said about winning money, not pots. If donking here would make the game easy, why did you post the hand? :D It's because it actually didn't. Indeed, if you always call pre to fold flop it's too weak. What can you change here?

    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      It's because it actually didn't. Indeed, if you always call pre to fold flop it's too weak. What can you change here?


      Since he is passive and calling station, I am just checking till showdown and betting with stronger hands like top pair for value. He should not bluff me out that often.

      BTW lets say I am having A9 here. Is my donkbet then good, or should I wait for cbet. By donking I get value, but as many say - he is cbeting a lot, so let him bluff.
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      I think in that scenario (and in most), all a donk bet does is remove his bluffs putting you in a worse spot.

      This guy is cbetting the flop too much and then giving up anyway. What I'd be more inclined to do with my calling range (that wouldnt include low PP's :P ) is call the flop (if it's good for my range), then wait for him to give up on the turn and hten lead the river small expecting him to fold very often.




      Against his 37% open, a calling range would be something that dominates his opening range, but with premiums that you 3bet removed. So if you want to donk, a flop that hits that range would have more FE, rather tahn unconnected mid range board. But donking always sucks anyway imo :f_cool:

      Weak pairs are pretty hard to play OOP with no initiative, even if you are ahead of his range. I'd 3bet it, he folds a lot, why not? Donking a flop that is nowhere near your calling range won't get much FE either.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      I agree with jules here. Apart from the 'donk betting sucks'.. It's actually a reasonable line but not when opponent plays weak IP. It's good when opp is capable of check back, delayed cbetting, cbet flop, check back turn to bluffcatch river and is just overall playing well with initiative. Then you can have a donking range but not a donking hand. Always a range.

      This hand is just a check/fold and 55 is so weak post I agree that 3bet or folding pre is better. I disagree that pairs should be 3bet/5bet of fold pre. They hit a set 11% of the time when you get your 3bet called and then you have the nuts with implied odds. You don't need to barrel ALL 3bet pots, especially if villain folds enough to the single sign of preflop aggression. You can just play fit or fold post until he doesn't fold as much preflop. If villain calls 3bets IP then 3betting small pairs indeed sucks and I'd go with the fold.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      Weak pairs are pretty hard to play OOP with no initiative, even if you are ahead of his range. I'd 3bet it, he folds a lot, why not? Donking a flop that is nowhere near your calling range won't get much FE either.


      There is problem with 3beting - I am OOP and I had in popup that he folds to 3bet IP 50 (6) and fold to 3bet OOP 100%. Thats how the average f3bet is 70.

      But - I think I can easily get 3 streets of value from his top pair, or maybe sometimes even 2nd pair and take all his 50bb stack when I hit.
      At least one street of value from his 3rd pair I think I am also getting.
      Plus I get 2 streets of value from his draws like there if he is having TJ or 76. I see much value with low sets vs him. So thats why I think - why not set mine.
      Also low stacks are stacking off lighter usually.

      What I'd be more inclined to do with my calling range (that wouldnt include low PP's ) is call the flop (if it's good for my range), then wait for him to give up on the turn and hten lead the river small expecting him to fold very often.

      I also like this idea. But I am not so sure how many folds do we get when we show weakness on turn. Because his wtsd is on higher side and he will bluffcatch a lot, as the notes say that also, for example

      open w AQ, c/c 9xx 2/3, c/c 1/2 7 w A high, c/c 1/2 K w A high - STATION

      in thsi note there is no cbet, but still tendency is to bluffcatch with A high. So that also adds more value for set mining if you can get 3 streets of value from ace high. Ok there he called small bets, but even if we get 2 streets from A high, its good.

      And I call only 30 cents so by call 20 its needed 6$. So I have even extra implied odds.

      So - why my reasoning to setmine is bad, if we can get value so often from him? Or is my thinking about value somewhere wrong?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
      Weak pairs are pretty hard to play OOP with no initiative, even if you are ahead of his range. I'd 3bet it, he folds a lot, why not? Donking a flop that is nowhere near your calling range won't get much FE either.


      There is problem with 3beting - I am OOP and I had in popup that he folds to 3bet IP 50 (6) and fold to 3bet OOP 100%. Thats how the average f3bet is 70.

      But - I think I can easily get 3 streets of value from his top pair, or maybe sometimes even 2nd pair and take all his 50bb stack when I hit.

      Did you do the math of how often he has TP and you a set? It's really usually not gonna happen. It goes you check, he cbets, you fold or he cbets, you raise, he folds. :)


      At least one street of value from his 3rd pair I think I am also getting.
      Plus I get 2 streets of value from his draws like there if he is having TJ or 76. I see much value with low sets vs him. So thats why I think - why not set mine.

      Draws are ahead of you, stop saying you do well against draws.
      Also low stacks are stacking off lighter usually.



      What I'd be more inclined to do with my calling range (that wouldnt include low PP's ) is call the flop (if it's good for my range), then wait for him to give up on the turn and hten lead the river small expecting him to fold very often.

      I also like this idea. But I am not so sure how many folds do we get when we show weakness on turn. Because his wtsd is on higher side and he will bluffcatch a lot, as the notes say that also, for example

      open w AQ, c/c 9xx 2/3, c/c 1/2 7 w A high, c/c 1/2 K w A high - STATION

      in thsi note there is no cbet, but still tendency is to bluffcatch with A high. So that also adds more value for set mining if you can get 3 streets of value from ace high. Ok there he called small bets, but even if we get 2 streets from A high, its good.

      And I call only 30 cents so by call 20 its needed 6$. So I have even extra implied odds.

      So - why my reasoning to setmine is bad, if we can get value so often from him? Or is my thinking about value somewhere wrong?

      You don't win postflop enough of the time. He cannot pay you off when you hit a set.
      You have faith you are right and you assume the guy will already adjust to your adjustment. Maybe you've been running bad lately or smth but this paranoia you have now won't be good long term for you. Vs a 50bb stack, you are prob better off just folding your small pairs pre and rarely, if ever 3bet depending on dynamics. That means you can 3bet/5bet with folding equity.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      Draws are ahead of you, stop saying you do well against draws.


      I meant not with small pair vs draws but with set vs draws I do have value I believe. (for the times when he does not have top pair to compensate part).

      Did you do the math of how often he has TP and you a set? It's really usually not gonna happen. It goes you check, he cbets, you fold or he cbets, you raise, he folds.


      I tried to do now. I looked at equilab hand distrinution and he has TP about 14% of the time.
      I hit set 11%.

      So I guess to combine those I need to multiply 0.11*0.14 = 0.015. Ok its really rarely :D when taliking about this board. Did not make experiments with other boards.

      So then conclussion - c/r him a lot should work very well. But when c/raising - it looks like oh, how I can be sure that if it works, he might call me with overcards, so thats why I do not c/r that often. Probably I am too optimistic that they are such stations to call with overcards or weak pair.

      But - lookink more to hand distribution - he is having 2nd pair 10% of the time, GS, 8 % of the time, OESD 4% of the time - so adding those up - its 32% of the time that he might continue after c/r on flop.

      Or if he does not continue after c/r becuase its so strong - then he should continue vs donkbet. But ok, 32% * 11% is 3.5%, still not much.


      I saw in the video still one coech was talking about defending with those low PPs. He was calling and then c/r flops and even betting turns as bluffs once they call flops. Of course he is already having c/r image, so he gets lighter calls.

      And in ohter hand he shows how he c/r set the same way and gets value from 3 streets from some medium hand like top pair or even worse, I don't remember.


      So if I get so many folds on flop, why not c/r flop if we get so many folds with 55 as well?



      nd you assume the guy will already adjust to your adjustment.


      No, I am not assuming that he will adjust so likely. BUt I am just trying to think loggicaly having that infomation :)
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      55 is so low on the equity spectrum that if you c/r this hand you can find probably c/r any hand you defend in this spot. If your opponent folds often enough to c/r any two you defend it's easy: c/r any two you defend. It's probably not the case though in which case you should start with the top of your folding range, not the bottom.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Nice thread chaps!