[NL2-NL10] [NL5 SH] JJ on a Q board

    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Poker Stars $5.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      BTN: $6.82 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 15, 3B: 9, AF: 1.3, Hands: 130
      SB: $4.62 - VPIP: 31, PFR: 28, 3B: 0, AF: 1.7, Hands: 29
      BB: $8.81 - VPIP: 18, PFR: 16, 3B: 5, AF: 3.1, Hands: 305
      UTG: $13.27 - VPIP: 15, PFR: 13, 3B: 2, AF: 1.4, Hands: 132
      MP: $5.00 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 11, A%: 25, Hands: 20
      Hero (CO): $13.19 - VPIP: 23, PFR: 19, 3B: 8, AF: 4.0, Hands: 20611

      Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is CO with J :spade: J :club:
      1 fold, MP raises to $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, 3 folds

      Flop: ($0.37) 3 :heart: Q :spade: 8 :diamond: (2 players)
      MP checks, Hero bets $0.25, MP raises to $0.50, Hero calls $0.25

      Turn: ($1.37) T :club: (2 players)
      MP bets $0.90, Hero calls $0.90

      River: ($3.17) 9 :heart: (2 players)
      MP checks, Hero bets $1.50, MP calls $1.50

      I think I managed to screw up this hand starting from the flop and ending with the river :f_cool:

      Flop: It's really weird that he doesn't CB here. When he checks to me I decide to bet. We have some nasty turn cards in the deck, so I don't actually mind him folding his kings and aces. When he min-raises, again, a check-raise on a dry board doesn't make much sense to me, unless he flopped a set. I decided to call, because he might raise bluffs here as well, since I won't hit this board often, but will try to take down the pot, if the PFA checks to me.

      Turn: I think it's not the best play to call again. A check-raise, then a big bet looks like a monster. Rarely people will try to bluff like that on this board (nothing they can represent really). So I think fold would be good here.

      River: Well, on the river I put him on AQ mostly. However, there's a nasty hand like a bluff KJ, which would now be the nuts. That's why I didn't shove here: AQ will fold, and KJ is possible. However, I think from this guy we would expect strong hands more often than bluffs, so perhaps our hand is the best, and perhaps he has something stronger than AQ. In this case it's a good idea to shove the river.

      In essence: fold turn, shove river...and flop might be kinda okay-ish.

      What do you think? TY
  • 10 replies
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Hey German,

      How often have you encountered people check raising flops as PFR? Furthermore how often have those ck/raises been bluffs or weak made hands?

      I would bet/fold that flop there without any reads as nitty as it may seem. We generally win smaller pots and lose medium/bigger ones.

      And as played you are right that folding turn is probably best after his larger bet and since we have a PSB I'd shove river. People at these limits find it hard to fold strong hands which is exactly what he has been repping all along (KK, AA, sets, 2p).
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Hey Bogdan,

      I see. What about if we were against a good player and the flop was drawy? So he kinda checks as he decided not to CB this flop, and then raises as a bluff or semi-bluff. Or it's still quite unlikely on NL5?

      I myself might do this with some draws from time to time against loose guys that should bluff here. Mainly to balance my check/fold line.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by Th334
      Hey Bogdan,

      I see. What about if we were against a good player and the flop was drawy? So he kinda checks as he decided not to CB this flop, and then raises as a bluff or semi-bluff. Or it's still quite unlikely on NL5?

      I myself might do this with some draws from time to time against loose guys that should bluff here. Mainly to balance my check/fold line.
      Good player, at 5nl? What's he doing there? :s_biggrin:

      Just kidding.

      Unless we have some aggro history with ck/raises and what not I would still bet/fold.

      I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to balance at 5nl. You should just worry about value and rather then try to be balance against players that hardly ever pay attention to anything more than stats.

      You should ck/raise for value or as a bluff/semibluff when villain has a wide range and bets a lot.
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Good player, at 5nl? What's he doing there? :s_biggrin:

      Coaching PokerStrategy fish for example. Easy money :s_biggrin:

      I'm kidding too.

      You should ck/raise for value or as a bluff/semibluff when villain has a wide range and bets a lot.

      So when we think that the board is too ugly to CB, we check, and the aggro villain bets, we can raise him easily with strong draws, maybe with weak ones too.

      Is it a good line? I mean, I CB my draws often as well, it's just another line I'm looking to try using.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Any time you want to deviate from the standard (in your example it would be to bet the draws) you should have a reason behind it. A reason that is based on facts/information rather than random things.

      So if you have a villain that bets a lot if given the chance but folds a lot to cbets you can extract more value with certain ck/raises.
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      Any time you want to deviate from the standard (in your example it would be to bet the draws) you should have a reason behind it. A reason that is based on facts/information rather than random things.

      So if you have a villain that bets a lot if given the chance but folds a lot to cbets you can extract more value with certain ck/raises.
      Okay...but then it would be quite a rare case, no?

      I think bluff check/raises make more sense without the initiative. If we are the PFA, just contibetting does the same thing at a lower cost most of the time.

      Right? So I'll save my light check-raises for spots where I can't CB then.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      No, I would say don't try to go ck/raising random players on connected boards where you can't cbet profitably unless you have villains with wide ranges that bet a lot. And even then you have to attentive to the actual board texture and your holding (do we still have equity if called or not?).

      I gave you a couple of examples of spots where you can use a ck/raise on the flop at these limits:

      1) Villain folds a lot to cbets but isn't shy of betting a lot if shown weakness
      2) Villain bets a lot if given the chance and doesn't like folding (thus we maximize value faster especially on drawy boards)

      Can you see other examples?
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      I see, but you are talking about value, and I was talking about bluffing! :)

      For value you said pretty much all I can think off: the villain is aggro, so we check-raise him expecting to see a call from his draws (or fold from his air, still we got more value). Best on drawy boards, because we would check/fold on these boards a lot too (some more redundant for 5NL deception).

      As a bluff currently I check-raise only with no initiative on wet boards, when the PFA makes too many CB. These boards smash our calling range, and he actually should not even CB here. If he does, we can check-raise him light.

      That's why I was asking whether there's such thing as light check-raising with the initiative, because it's not something I'm currently doing.

      Are my check-raising spots logical? Something I'm missing?

      TY
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Number 1 can apply for semibluffs/bluffs as well.

      Ideally you don't want to just purely bluff ck/raise because villains don't just have a fold or reraise range. They can also call IP which means that we want to have some equity in the hand.

      So for example against a guy that folds a lot to cbets we can bet our semibluffs but if he bets a lot if shown the weakness we can also ck/raise as a semibluff(and possibly follow through if he rarely goes to show down and is fit/fold).
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Oh. That's a bit fancy though...extracting more value with a bluff? For me just making him fold was always good enough.

      I'll think if I can use this line, thanks. The problem is, we need to have a huge sample size or good notes on the guy, because someone who "folds a lot to cbets, and bets a lot if shown the weakness" is not that easy to spot imo.