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[NL2-NL10] 18 21 87

    • Dracsharp
      Dracsharp
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2010 Posts: 2,478
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
      SB ($18.71)
      Hero ($14.23)
      UTG ($9.85)
      CO ($5.58)
      BTN ($10)

      Dealt to Hero 8:spade: 7:spade:

      fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.30, fold, Hero raises to $1, BTN calls $0.70

      FLOP ($2.05) 3:spade: 4:heart: Q:spade:

      Hero bets $1.02, BTN calls $1.02

      TURN ($4.09) 3:spade: 4:heart: Q:spade: 2:diamond:

      Hero checks, BTN bets $3, Hero raises to $12.08, BTN calls $4.98 (AI)

      RIVER ($20.05) 3:spade: 4:heart: Q:spade: 2:diamond: Q:club:

      Hero shows 8:spade: 7:spade:
      (Pre 20%, Flop 31.9%, Turn 18.2%)

      BTN shows T:club: T:spade:
      (Pre 80%, Flop 68.1%, Turn 81.8%)

      BTN wins $18.72

      Vs unknown reg

      I lost money in the session and wonder should i do moves likes this or not, pre calling is bit uncomfortable vs unknown, fold is more conservative and i may only do these once i know them, 3b/f as bluff is another option.

      Postflop is not easy either flop c/p would be overplay so i picked cbet.

      He could have different range or aggression, but i at this time handled him as tight-tag with possible aggressive tendencies, so float big bet is can be folded since it is possible as bluff.

      1 QQ,AKs,AKo
      2 QQ-TT,AQs+,AQo+
      3 JJ-77,AQs-A9s,KJs+,AQo-ATo,KQo
  • 8 replies
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Hi Dracsharp,

      Preflop: looks fine and you chose a hand that can play well postflop if called.

      Postflop: Against an unknown we should take the cbet line here rather than ck because we really don't know what to expect from him.

      On the turn, I don't like the checkshove. I doubt villain has a lot of floats (I wouldn't expect an unknown reg to have that) and most of the stuff that he bets, if not all, is a bet call. And guess what? We have 8 high so that's not good.

      So turn we either bet again or simply ck/call.

      What range did you expect villain to bet/fold on the turn?
    • Dracsharp
      Dracsharp
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2010 Posts: 2,478
      We can't really c/c this size.

      I expected Bluffs , qx , maybe q- pps that bet here also against flush but possibly fold

      How would you play a tt in his case ?
      Float ?

      He needs to fold 40% of the time to make it +ev.

      Alternative is

      b/f probably because he will shove , he likely shoves qx there, probably fold bluffs or minraises or shoves my cbet , and more likely calls pp-s than when i shove on them
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by Dracsharp
      We can't really c/c this size.

      I expected Bluffs , qx , maybe q- pps that bet here also against flush but possibly fold

      How would you play a tt in his case ?
      Float ?

      He needs to fold 40% of the time to make it +ev.

      Alternative is

      b/f probably because he will shove , he likely shoves qx there, probably fold bluffs or minraises or shoves my cbet , and more likely calls pp-s than when i shove on them
      A lot of people call PPs on flop and fold them on the turn. Qxx flops are not the greatest in 3-bet pots because AQ/KQ make a decent part of his calling range (besides PPs).

      I would simply bet the turn there and if you really think he doesn't fold pairs you can shove most rivers. But I'd expect a 10nl reg to drop a lot of his mid pairs on the turn.

      IF I had TT there in his shoes I would not bet the turn. There's little value in a bet and his bet/call is actually pretty bad imo because you could have nutty hands there too (QQ+).

      Was it really against a full unknown or did you guys have some small history?
    • Dracsharp
      Dracsharp
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2010 Posts: 2,478
      No history, all i knew that he is likely a reg based on played tables.

      I don't know what kind of stat do you consider a usual reg at this limit could you mention some stats that would describe it ?

      Most regs i see are having similar stats to this
      24/21
      10~% 3b
      40% steal
      70% fold to steal
      30-40% af

      Definitely on the aggro side, ill post the hands tomorrow i can't more today, but many actually make a habit of exploiting abc reg behavior, which is what you play when you have no hands about them.

      So floating , raising cbets as bluffs, minraising double barrels as bluffs, double barreling as bluff is very common , but most of all 3betting as bluff.

      Most actually more closely resemble the lag style.

      I have no problem fighting tight regs 17/14 or normal regs 21/18 but lags 26/22 could be misrepresented based on even based hundred hands, and they will pressure you, but they are not as obvious as maniacs are, and actually turn out to be normal regs or stay lags. Once you know them you can fight them but it still uncomfortable having them sitting on you left, forcing you to go tight or/and go in a bluffing game.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by Dracsharp
      No history, all i knew that he is likely a reg based on played tables.

      I don't know what kind of stat do you consider a usual reg at this limit could you mention some stats that would describe it ?

      Most regs i see are having similar stats to this
      24/21
      10~% 3b
      40% steal
      70% fold to steal
      30-40% af

      Definitely on the aggro side, ill post the hands tomorrow i can't more today, but many actually make a habit of exploiting abc reg behavior, which is what you play when you have no hands about them.

      So floating , raising cbets as bluffs, minraising double barrels as bluffs, double barreling as bluff is very common , but most of all 3betting as bluff.

      Most actually more closely resemble the lag style.

      I have no problem fighting tight regs 17/14 or normal regs 21/18 but lags 26/22 could be misrepresented based on even based hundred hands, and they will pressure you, but they are not as obvious as maniacs are, and actually turn out to be normal regs or stay lags. Once you know them you can fight them but it still uncomfortable having them sitting on you left, forcing you to go tight or/and go in a bluffing game.
      I play 10nl for the English and Romanian public coachings on Stars. Most regs are still very straight forward and do not fall into the lag category. I also coach various 10nl players from various sites and the regs there are very similar (mind you I haven't coached anyone on FTP 10nl for a while).

      So I find it hard to believe that there will be so many lag regs.

      My usual approach, at these limits, is to consider them a "normal" reg like the 17/14 or 21/18 that you are talking about and play a "standard" game until we have a reason to deviate from our strategy.

      Assuming that every unknown reg is floating light and bluffing a lot will make you spew a ton of money. By that same logic you can start 3-betting them really wide, get it in light, raise/call flops/turn/rivers, etc.

      Now if villain is capable of floating, which they are at times, our second barrel will often take care of that so no need to go for a fancy semi-bluff line of ck/raise versus a complete unknown.
    • Dracsharp
      Dracsharp
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2010 Posts: 2,478
      I realize that i might just remember them more, and while tags step up the a higher limit lags keeps bluffing unknowns, so they are actually stay regulars of this limit, i should learn from their mistakes i suppose. Sometimes it does seem like 2/5 guys are lags but other times 1/10 is more common, usually there is one at every table.

      My conservative play is takes the approach of being on the safe side unless it seems justified, and never 3b bluffing unknowns and like. There is some money lost with unknown lost opportunities but not as much as i do with misplayed situations.

      Ill check out your play on sunday, i could use it.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by Dracsharp
      I realize that i might just remember them more, and while tags step up the a higher limit lags keeps bluffing unknowns, so they are actually stay regulars of this limit, i should learn from their mistakes i suppose. Sometimes it does seem like 2/5 guys are lags but other times 1/10 is more common, usually there is one at every table.

      My conservative play is takes the approach of being on the safe side unless it seems justified, and never 3b bluffing unknowns and like. There is some money lost with unknown lost opportunities but not as much as i do with misplayed situations.

      Ill check out your play on sunday, i could use it.
      Sounds good, looking forward to seeing you on Sunday.

      And I agree with you that we generally lose a lot of money from over adjusting and overplaying hands.

      Against unknowns we should try and stick to a standard game (whatever your standard may be). Once we have extra information we can deviate from the standard.
    • sketchzr
      sketchzr
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.08.2009 Posts: 222
      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      Originally posted by Dracsharp
      I realize that i might just remember them more, and while tags step up the a higher limit lags keeps bluffing unknowns, so they are actually stay regulars of this limit, i should learn from their mistakes i suppose. Sometimes it does seem like 2/5 guys are lags but other times 1/10 is more common, usually there is one at every table.

      My conservative play is takes the approach of being on the safe side unless it seems justified, and never 3b bluffing unknowns and like. There is some money lost with unknown lost opportunities but not as much as i do with misplayed situations.

      Ill check out your play on sunday, i could use it.
      Sounds good, looking forward to seeing you on Sunday.

      And I agree with you that we generally lose a lot of money from over adjusting and overplaying hands.

      Against unknowns we should try and stick to a standard game (whatever your standard may be). Once we have extra information we can deviate from the standard.
      May actually check that out myself, yet to jump in on a coaching session.

      To add my experience with Full Tilt is that the general field of players is more aggressive overall which is one reason I moved over to stars for the time being, it's pretty similar but as a whole I find the players a bit softer.