[NL2-NL10] KJo NL4 SH

    • acetbfish
      acetbfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2011 Posts: 804
      The villain is playing with stats 23/19, 68% cbet and 60% turn cbet.

      Party No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (6 handed) - Party Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

      MP ($10.62)
      Button ($7.57)
      Hero (BB) ($4.14)
      SB ($1.28)
      CO ($1.60)
      UTG ($4.76)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with J, K
      3 folds, Button bets $0.16, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.12

      Flop: ($0.34) J, 2, K (2 players)
      Hero checks, Button checks

      Turn: ($0.34) 3 (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.26, Button calls $0.26

      River: ($0.86) A (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.65, Button raises $7.15 (All-In)

      Can I call his shove on the river? Am I winning anything? How is my line here?
  • 14 replies
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      No, of course not! Will a tight straightforward guy raise-shove the river with one pair?

      Your line is good to me :)
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Hi acetbfish,

      Preflop: That's quite a big raise for the BTN (4x). I'd be tempted to 3-bet there just to collect the extra dead money. If he normally raises 3x and now he makes it 4x I would be worried of a bet sizing tell and fold this preflop.

      Postflop: As played the river is really weird because villain is only representing some weird AJ/A2/A3 type hand but I still think that most people at these limits rarely ever overbet as a bluff so I would highly consider the fold.
    • acetbfish
      acetbfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2011 Posts: 804
      His raises were always 4bbs. I considered to 3bet him but I was active a lot on the table and I 3bet him also a lot when I had position on him. I just didn't want to 3bet and play a big pot OOP against him. Do you think he checked the flop to trap me or you think that he hit his hand on the turn or the river?
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      We should do exactly the opposite :) Call more IP, and 3bet more OOP. Correct me if I'm wrong, Bogdan.

      Given his CB stats, he might easily have nothing here on the flop, or a medium pair. That would explain his call on the turn (pot control), and he might catch up top 2P on the river and decide to shove.

      Alternative version: he's on a club FD, or OESD with QT, and decides to stack with his straight, or bluff with a busted FD :)

      Either way, we beat only bluffs. At higher stakes, I would imagine that people bluff here every single time, so a call could be good. I know nothing about higher stakes though :f_biggrin:
    • acetbfish
      acetbfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2011 Posts: 804
      Yeah, I'm not very good playing 3bet pots oop :D
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Originally posted by acetbfish
      Yeah, I'm not very good playing 3bet pots oop :D
      The thing is, you hope that most of the time you'll take the pot down preflop, and even when you don't, you can flop something and continue, or CB-bluff.

      If you just call, you have no position, no initiative, and you basically play fit/fold often, because on many boards people won't fold to your bluffs.

      EDIT: Oh, I just noticed that our hand is not suited :) Yeah, in this case I definitely 3bet or fold. We flop something only 30% of the time, and it will be no good for big pots most of the time. So our fit/fold becomes more fold than fit :f_biggrin:

      People get used to 4-colored decks very fast :f_biggrin:
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      German you got it spot on.

      More calling IP, less OOP.

      If he calls a lot of 3-bets, including while OOP we can also 3-bet a wider range IP.

      This offsuite broadway will play really poorly postflop and you will have a hard time showing a profit here. So fold or 3-bet.
    • dienaszaglis
      dienaszaglis
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.06.2008 Posts: 999
      Hi!


      I agree, that it`s much easier to play from blinds, if we 3-bet CO/BU open-raise.

      What range should we flat in this case?

      22-99/TT, QJs, KJs, KQs, ATs, AJs?
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Originally posted by dienaszaglis
      Hi!


      I agree, that it`s much easier to play from blinds, if we 3-bet CO/BU open-raise.

      What range should we flat in this case?

      22-99/TT, QJs, KJs, KQs, ATs, AJs?
      In my humble opinion, you need to consider two or three factors:
      • What is the villains range? If our hand dominates a large chunk of it and we want to keep his range wide -- call.
      • What is his fold to 3B? Generally we call the hands that are too bad for a value 3B (he folds all worse), and are too good for a bluff.
      • Do we have a plan postflop? E.g. if his CB is 50% with overall low Agg%, we can often call and expect to take the pot down when we both miss. Alternatively, he might CB 80% with his huge preflop range, and we can just raise or float him on many scary boards.

      Hope the essence of my fishy preflop knowledge was helpful to you :f_cool:
    • dienaszaglis
      dienaszaglis
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.06.2008 Posts: 999
      Th334,


      Thank you for your response. Of course, more info about the villain/tendencies would be great. But in this spot we only have his stats:

      "The villain is playing with stats 23/19, 68% cbet and 60% turn cbet."


      What`s your flatting range here?
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Hey dienaszaglis,

      RFI is really important here, especially on uNL. One guy might play 22/22/22/22/22, the other 8/12/30/50/10. So we can't really put him on a more or less accurate range without his RFI. We also need to know if he's bluffy or a calling station, to estimate our implieds for sth like pocket pairs.

      If we assume his RFI like 30%, and that he's not particularly bluffy, then about AJ,ATs,KQ,88-JJ is pretty conservative. Again, I choose these hands because they stand good against his range, generally they aren't good enough for a value raise, and they look too shiny to turn them into a bluff :) When his range gets wider, we can flat more hands like suited broadways, because we will be dominated less often.

      His cbet flop is nothing extraordinary, so we can't go too fancy here when we miss.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by dienaszaglis
      Th334,


      Thank you for your response. Of course, more info about the villain/tendencies would be great. But in this spot we only have his stats:

      "The villain is playing with stats 23/19, 68% cbet and 60% turn cbet."


      What`s your flatting range here?
      Diena,

      It's important to look at his steal % and then we pick a range that does well versus his opening range.

      So what's his BTN steal over the sample you have? Always look at the positional stats when you have a decent sample.

      Pairs, suited broadways, bigger aces all could play well. The wider his range the wider our range can be.
    • acetbfish
      acetbfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2011 Posts: 804
      Unfortunately I don't have his RFI and steal stats cause my hud sucks (it's a free hud which doesn't include them) :( . BTW, nice usefull posts Th334!
    • Th334
      Th334
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 971
      Originally posted by acetbfish
      Unfortunately I don't have his RFI and steal stats cause my hud sucks (it's a free hud which doesn't include them) :( . BTW, nice usefull posts Th334!
      Okay, what can we do? In this case all you can do is just to look at him closely, trying to spot whether he seem to open more often from CO,BU,SB than from UTG,MP. Often times it's easy to spot. Just as a guess, you can also try assuming that guys with big PFR (~26+) might be often loose from every position; guys with solid PFR, like yours (~18-22), might have a nice curve with the tight UTG and loose BU, and obv. nits (~10) are just nits, stay away from them without a good hand. Fish is just fish, so a guy like 60/10 plays the same way from every position.

      So our guy here 23/19 might be a positionally aware TAG, so you should spot pretty quickly if his BU RFI is 4 times bigger than UTG.

      Pay attention especially to the guy on your right, and to the second guy on your right. These guys are your money in ring games, so make sure you know as much about them as you can. Consider even making a short note like "RFI wider CO/BU" or "Pos. unaware", if you've already spent some time looking at him.

      As you grind through your first limit or two, purchasing HM or PT should be your first priority imo.

      [feel free to add me in the community tool or skype if you want]