[NL20-NL50] sh50 AKs BB

    • AtrociousNightmare
      AtrociousNightmare
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2010 Posts: 1,185
      I'll post 2 hands in the same thread this time because these 2 hands happened exactly one after another, and against the same person.

      On a side note, I switched to Zoom (SH), and I come from normal FR.


      Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      BTN: $38.23 (76.5 bb)
      SB: $85.26 (170.5 bb)
      Hero (BB): $66.83 (133.7 bb)
      UTG: $61.36 (122.7 bb)
      MP: $301.80 (603.6 bb)
      CO: $63.06 (126.1 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with A K
      UTG raises to $1.50, 3 folds, SB calls $1.25, Hero raises to $6, UTG folds, SB calls $4.50

      Flop: ($13.50) 9 4 A (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero checks

      Turn: ($13.50) 2 (2 players)
      SB bets $6.50, Hero calls $6.50

      River: ($26.50) 2 (2 players)
      SB bets $12.50, Hero calls $12.50

      Results:
      $51.50 pot ($2.83 rake)
      Final Board: 9 4 A 2 2
      SB showed 7 7 and lost (-$25 net)
      Hero showed A K and won $48.67 ($23.67 net)

      SB: VPIP: 21, PFR: 11, 3B: 0, AF: 1,3, Hands: 66

      So here I check because a call from him in that way tells me he's on some high PP or on AK (maybe, but chances are really low).
      So I don't see any value by betting (and no need for protection), as I think on such a fairly big pot PPs would fold.

      He starts betting himself probably thinking I don't have the A so I call both streets, even if I'm not too happy about the third suit.


      Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (BTN): $90.50 (181 bb)
      SB: $25.41 (50.8 bb)
      BB: $48.75 (97.5 bb)
      UTG: $60.66 (121.3 bb)
      MP: $165.90 (331.8 bb)
      CO: $60.26 (120.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with A K
      2 folds, CO raises to $1.50, Hero raises to $4.50, 2 folds, CO calls $3

      Flop: ($9.75) A 3 7 (2 players)
      CO checks, Hero checks

      Turn: ($9.75) J (2 players)
      CO checks, Hero bets $5.53, CO folds

      Results:
      $9.75 pot ($0.53 rake)
      Final Board: A 3 7 J
      Hero mucked A K and won $9.22 ($4.72 net)
      CO mucked and lost (-$4.50 net)

      As I said before it's the same person. And this is the hand right after previous one.

      So here is basically the same situation except the pot is smaller.
      So I do the same thing.
      However I had the doubt of actually betting this time to balance it out and don't make him see I played it the same way.
      But after all since he looked liked not such a good player, I was more inclined in inducing in him the thought "it can't happen again twice in a row".
  • 10 replies
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      We have the virtual nuts. Just bet and keep betting. Checking here with the top of your range, basically makes your flop betting range air heavy. I Don't want to preach so much about balance here, but even NL50 players are smart enough to adapt here.

      And we should bluff catch here with stuff like KK or AJ. With AK, we should go for max value and hope for him to call down light with AJs or AQ. Why turn such a monster into a bluff catcher? It doesn't make sense at all.

      This is extremely different from having AA here, where he just has an Ace himself super rarely. But here with AK, we are hoping for 3 streets of value vs AQ.

      Unless you are telling me you have reads on him always turning everything into a bluff, I really see no point in taking this sort of passive line.

      "I'm afraid of the third-suit"

      If you thought carefully about his preflop range, he hardly has any suited hands in his range. So that's probably the least of my worries.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      This is misplayed the same way you misplayed hand one. Here there are 2 conflicting views on how to best play poker

      1) Slowplay nuts, and play passive with air too
      2) Fastplay nuts, and bet bluffs to balance

      I think if you actually thought about these spots carefully, what you'll notice is that approach 1 is usually taken by the recreational players and approach 2 is taken by strong aggro players. I guess you know who makes more money at poker, and I don't know why you are trying to emulate losing players.
    • AtrociousNightmare
      AtrociousNightmare
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by mbml
      We have the virtual nuts. Just bet and keep betting. Checking here with the top of your range, basically makes your flop betting range air heavy. I Don't want to preach so much about balance here, but even NL50 players are smart enough to adapt here.

      And we should bluff catch here with stuff like KK or AJ. With AK, we should go for max value and hope for him to call down light with AJs or AQ. Why turn such a monster into a bluff catcher? It doesn't make sense at all.

      This is extremely different from having AA here, where he just has an Ace himself super rarely. But here with AK, we are hoping for 3 streets of value vs AQ.

      Unless you are telling me you have reads on him always turning everything into a bluff, I really see no point in taking this sort of passive line.

      "I'm afraid of the third-suit"

      If you thought carefully about his preflop range, he hardly has any suited hands in his range. So that's probably the least of my worries.
      I guess with all these changes to my game in these days I got a little confused.
      In my head I was like "yey I'm balancing now since I'm checking a hand I usually bet!", but that's not balance, that's stupid. xD

      Thank you this is really gold for me atm.

      And btw when I say "I'm not too happy" means I'm not really worried, I just hope he didn't suckout with bad stuff as it happens often. (like the suited cards he shouldn't have had here)

      So anyway, with AA you'd have checked here?
      Because of the very tiny possibility he has an A?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      Yes, with AA i will consider slowplaying.

      I think you misunderstand the concept of checking strong hands. This mostly applies for OOP checking. In position it doesn't make sense too often, opponent cannot stab 3 barrels vs us, we don't need to protect our weaker checking range so much since there are only 2 more streets left to act and the mere act of checking Flop already allows us to pot control by a lot.

      So you could consider checking maybe 10-20% of strong hands OOP for balance, but at NL50 I wouldn't be overly worried about that yet. Just make sure your fundamentals are better before moving up and incorporating such stuff into your game at NL100/200 where opponents are way more likelier to fire 3 barrels.
    • AtrociousNightmare
      AtrociousNightmare
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by mbml
      we don't need to protect our weaker checking range so much since there are only 2 more streets left to act and the mere act of checking Flop already allows us to pot control by a lot..
      Sorry could you extend or create an example for this?
      I'm not sure I get it, I mean mostly for what you mean with "protecting our weaker checking range".
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Gold
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,720
      Originally posted by mbml
      We have the virtual nuts. Just bet and keep betting..

      What if our bet get called flop, are we still sure we are ahead against regg?
      I would from sb call sqeeze with PP for set value if BTN joins the pot. But never with Ax hand because with Ax weaker than AK you hit rarely and when you hit you are not sure if you are ahead and you are OOP.
      So I expect SB mostly to have PP, I doubt he could have suited connectors in sqeeze pot.

      So what I wanted to ask, against tight regg, on this board, when he calls flop is it more probable that he has set or Ax? What do we do when we get raised with our virtual nuts?
      If we assume that good player would 4bet AK from sb, and maybe call with AQ, then there are 8 combos of AQ left. There are 3 combos of 99 and 3 of 44, total 6.
      So we can conclude it is a bit more likely he has Ax here, but I would say it is more reallistic he folds AQ or 4bets, so I would say AK is not virtual nuts here once we get called on flop.
      Also, i think AA, KK, QQ is much more virtual nuts on low cards boards than AK on this one because sb can call wider.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      @AtrociousNightmare:

      We have KK as the PFR OOP and Flop is A22r. If we check here, we tell our opponent we have some medium-strength hand. As a result, if we do not have a balanced range here, his natural reaction to us is to either 3-barrel or give up immediately, given that our default strategy is probably to c/c twice and then fold.

      Thus, we may want to add stronger hands like AK or even just AQ/AJ some % of the time, hands that are strong enough to call down, such that it discourages him from bluffing too often.

      On the Flipside, same hand, same board texture but now we are IP. We check back with KK on A22r. We can virtually call 2 bets on almost any runout (turn Q River 8 for example). The pot isn't that big anyway when only 2 extra bets go in, as compared to a huge 3rd river bet. We are not really placed in a tough spot this time and can easily call down, unless he makes some overbet. Thus, I see less of a reason to add strong hands to our checking range here.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      @mlatasrb:

      Well, on A94ss, only possible set is 99 which is 3 combos. We are ahead of more combos of AQ/AJ so I'll just keep betting and hope he calls with worse. This board is significantly different from let's say, AT9 or A98. I think SB is only defending AQ/midpairs/KQs/AJs in this position. His range is really well-defined.

      So maybe on these not so good boards, we can consider playing more passively.

      But in this example hand here, we should just bet 3 streets.
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Gold
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,720
      Originally posted by mbml
      @mlatasrb:

      Well, on A94ss, only possible set is 99 which is 3 combos. We are ahead of more combos of AQ/AJ so I'll just keep betting and hope he calls with worse. This board is significantly different from let's say, AT9 or A98. I think SB is only defending AQ/midpairs/KQs/AJs in this position. His range is really well-defined.

      So maybe on these not so good boards, we can consider playing more passively.

      But in this example hand here, we should just bet 3 streets.
      Thanks for explanations, I think I understood your point.
      So you say only possible set is 99, because you don't expect SB to call with 44? Should I play the same way if I am in situation as SB here? I dont see difference calling sqeeze 99 or 44? Anyway I would play it just for set value, and if I dont hit, 99 and 44 are both hard to play OOP, and if I hit I can assume I have the best hand. But anyway I think it is better to fold preflop because SB doesnt have odds to call with PP?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      99 is not the same as 44, fewer overcards. You are making the assumption that BB only squeezes with big broadway hands which is not entirely true. Sometimes, people do squeeze AXs or K6s or 78s, and in such situations, 99 > 44 for sure.

      Also in certain situations, like when the board is 556r, 44 is bad because when the board double pairs, 44 is counterfeited.