[NL20-NL50] NL50 SH - A3s: 4bet pot vs reg

    • Lunitis
      Lunitis
      Gold
      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 20,132
      29/25
      4.2af
      10.7% 3bet (11% vs hero)
      17% resteal vs sb steal
      47% fold vs 4bet
      3.4% 5bet range
      29% fold vs cbet 4bet pot (24)
      18% agg river
      44% bet ip vs miss cbets
      48k hands


      all day everyday playing against him. i think he see me as an somewhat aggressive reg

      Notes:
      - 3bet/shove 99 in this positions against me
      - 170bbs deep 3bet/call at sb vs me bu, in AxxKx c/r 27/9, c c



      BTN: $8.05 (16.1 bb)
      Hero (SB): $50 (100 bb)
      BB: $67.72 (135.4 bb)
      UTG: $76.98 (154 bb)
      MP: $50 (100 bb)
      CO: $33.46 (66.9 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with A:spade: 3:spade:
      4 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, BB raises to $4.50, Hero raises to $9.50, BB calls $5

      Flop: ($19) 5:diamond: Q:diamond: A:diamond: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks

      Turn: ($19) Q:spade: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks

      River: ($19) 6:diamond: (2 players)
      Hero

      Betting or c/c anywhere?
  • 16 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Hey,

      First of all, when 4betting pre from OOP against someone that has already shown you they can call 4bets, adjust your sizing. 19bb is going to be way to small imo.. I think 22bb is going to be a lot better here as a default unless you have a dynamic where he can 5bet/fold too wide vs your small 4bet. Another suggestion is to rethink your blockers... 9, T and J are definitely blockers now because he 3bet/5bets 99+, he's already shown you that.

      Overall preflop idea seems OK just some extra thoughts there. Postflop you need to know his calling range which you don't. That being the case you have to play your range and A3 is probably a bluffcatcher/medium hand for your range here. You can't vbet it really since there are very few worse hands that can call but it's still good enough to add some money to the pot so I would check/call. When flop checks through not much changes since stacks are shallow, thus both of you can 'slowplay' if they had a hand but the turn card is sort of better for him when you have Ax because hands like QJ, KQ will often be in his range here. Once he doesn't bet turn either though I think you have the best hand very often but betting won't get you value. I doubt he is capable of value betting a T high, probably not even J high flush so I would usually check/call river though it's not fispump call. I would just add this hand to my bluffcatching range until further notice.
    • Lunitis
      Lunitis
      Gold
      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 20,132
      Hi. Ty.
      Would you go for 22bbs ip in this case too?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      IP you don't mind as much when the opponent calls, you can still control action well although SPR is a bit small. I usually go about 20-21bb IP 100bb deep vs 9bb 3bet and 22-23bb OOP vs same 3bet size. If he 3bets bigger or smaller I adjust a bit to not give him too good pot odds for the immediate call but also not to make it too big compared to his sizing.
    • Lunitis
      Lunitis
      Gold
      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 20,132
      Ok, sounds good.
      And if he dont calls 4bets? 19 ip/oop...?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by Lunitis
      Ok, sounds good.
      And if he dont calls 4bets? 19 ip/oop...?
      If he never called 4bets just do what works well for your range. 19-20bb sounds good.. I'd actually go as low as min4bets against some people but then you can definitely expect to get calls.
    • Lunitis
      Lunitis
      Gold
      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 20,132
      Min 4bets? Like what?
      15 against 10?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by Lunitis
      Min 4bets? Like what?
      15 against 10?
      Min4bet as in clicking it back. $7.50 in yor specific case. That doesn't give you folding equity though so it's a lot more complicated 100bb deep. I use it vs midstackers usually since it puts them into shove/fold mode even with the good pot odds they get preflop.
    • Lunitis
      Lunitis
      Gold
      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 20,132
      Thats interesting. I usually make it 2x or 2x+1. But yeah, even with a click it back i cant see them calling (at least with the bluff part of the 3bet).
      Have you seen them spewing against the click it back? I guess they might get annoyed by that. If they respect the same we can increase our bluffing range..
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      If they 3bet with nice suited hands, a min4bet gives them good odds to call 100bb deep to simply hit their hand. Apart from that, if you have hands that can miss flop like AK they usually are doing OK to call and not just hit but also bluff you sometimes.

      The idea behind a 4bet when 100bb deep or less is usually to put your opponent into shove or fold mode. That is a bit less likely to happen/harder to do when you raise small pre, get 3bet small but the latter is not the standard that is around NL100 and below.
    • Lunitis
      Lunitis
      Gold
      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 20,132
      BTW..
      As we are talking about big pots and click it back i would like to show you this hand:



      MP: $61.93 (123.9 bb)
      CO: $61.52 (123 bb)
      BTN: $19 (38 bb)
      SB: $68.79 (137.6 bb)
      Hero (BB): $51.04 (102.1 bb)
      UTG: $47.75 (95.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with J:heart: Q:diamond:
      3 folds, BTN raises to $1.25, SB raises to $3, Hero raises to $6.50, BTN folds, SB raises to $10, Hero folds

      Results: $14.25 pot
      SB mucked and won $14.25 ($7.75 net)
      [/hand_history][/converted_hand]

      BU its an MSS with 49% steal, 64% fold vs resteal bu
      SB reg with 15% resteal SB, 57% fold vs 4bet and 3.5% 5bet range

      Was the first time i saw this min 5bet. When he did that i was "wtf thats cool" because there is nothing i can do (?!). What if i have AX (thats the hand i will have more often)? Can i call?! (its the first time i face this panorama, i dont even know well what to think). Ok, i might have interesting odds just to play for TP against KK/JJ, but they will play cautiously when an A hits, and when he have AK!? Will i fold vs a cbet with my Ax?! This spot its kinda sick :f_biggrin:
      And...its cool to put regs in sick spots.
    • Lunitis
      Lunitis
      Gold
      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 20,132
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      If they 3bet with nice suited hands, a min4bet gives them good odds to call 100bb deep to simply hit their hand. Apart from that, if you have hands that can miss flop like AK they usually are doing OK to call and not just hit but also bluff you sometimes.

      The idea behind a 4bet when 100bb deep or less is usually to put your opponent into shove or fold mode. That is a bit less likely to happen/harder to do when you raise small pre, get 3bet small but the latter is not the standard that is around NL100 and below.
      The post i did before this answer was about 4bet specific vs mss.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      @hand: don't cold 4bet as a bluff in that spot with the BU's stack imo. In this spot I think SB is just trying to induce but once sizings are small enough, 5bet/folding is definitely possible. Responding to his play is tough because it's far from a standard spot at NL50. Usually, I cold 4bet wider than QQ+, AK for value there so then I can react to a min5bet by shoving reasonably wide like TT+, AK, maybe AQ sometimes.. depends a bit on history with SB.

      You can't do anything if your range is not well constructed. Calling usually sucks with any offsuit hand actually. Your TP will not beat his 'bluffs' often enough.. he can prob bluff AJ, AQ, KQ, KJ here so your pairs are rly weak.
    • Lunitis
      Lunitis
      Gold
      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 20,132
      Yeah sure, to call i would need a balanced range.
      But i got more interested in this spot by the possibility of hero making this kind of click back 5bets.
      I have a 5bet bluff range that consists almost only on PP, but by 5bet going all-in its kind of a big size, so i need it to work very often.
      Once i did some calculations to find out how many folds i would need by 5bet all-in with 22 (assuming a calling range of JJ+;AK), and i need something close to 60% to be +ev.
      My fold vs 4bet its at 65%, so i will make some calculations and some tables to find out how to decrease that, because games are very dynamic and aggressive between regs. With click it back 5bet i could increase my bluffing range...
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Yes, with min5bets you can bluff somewhat more often but also can make your opponent make a mistake in 3 ways: fold, call or shove. When you shove he has only 2 options so he gets it right 50% of the time right if we disregard his hand and tendencies. (obv just a rough presentation, hope you get the point: more choices, harder to find the best one)

      Just make sure you don't commit yourself with the 5bet because then it's effectively a shove so you will probably be better off shoving to avoid a spew shove with KQ and you having to call 66 or smth like that. :D
    • Lunitis
      Lunitis
      Gold
      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 20,132
      Do you think a click it back its good enough?
      BTW how much is a click it back? Whats the formula that the sites use to calculate it? I dont know :f_mad:
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Vs small enough 4bets you can add a few bbs to your 5bet. A minraise is current bet + (current_bet - previous_bet). Like in your example a minraise was 6.50 + (6.50-3) = 6.50+3.50 = 10.