[NL20-NL50] nl50 Flop Check Raise Called, How Should I Proceed?

    • Ghartman
      Ghartman
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.10.2011 Posts: 270
      $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $87.34 (174.7 bb)
      BB: $168.31 (336.6 bb)
      MP: $74.40 (148.8 bb)
      CO: $71.76 (143.5 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $55.34 (110.7 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with 2 K
      MP calls $0.50, CO folds, Hero raises to $2.50, SB calls $2.25, BB folds, MP calls $2

      Flop: ($8) K 6 J (3 players)
      SB bets $2.50, MP folds, Hero raises to $7.75, SB calls $5.25

      Turn: ($23.50) A (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero?????


      Ok, so this hand was played on the Anon tables so no correct stats on villain, however I do remember 2 specific hands that I played against him. One where he less than min-raised my 3x open with 10's (he had KK) and he got some money off me on a low board and the other hand when he just flatted my open (he had AK) and let me bluff barrel off 2 streets on an ace high board, so I'm classing him as weird/tricky.

      So we get a limp from effectively UTG and it folds around to me. I feel my hand is good enough for a cheeky squeeze and I get called in 2 spots. The flop is almost perfect for me and SB leads out. With a standard flush draw I would probably just flat but obviously I'm happy to raise it up and play for stacks if necessary with my combo draw, but he just flats which messes up the plan somewhat.

      My question relates to this turn card, should we be barelling here and, if we do and get raised/shoved on, is it a fold or not? I got a bit lost and think I mis-played it from here so I'm wondering what the best line would be here in a vacuum? Let me know what you think.

      Thanks
  • 4 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,908
      Heyo,

      Firstly, you are isolating preflop, not squeezing, You squeeze when there's at least one caller as well. :) It's definitely fine, just pointing out the right terminology.

      @Flop play: Why do you raise? Your reasoning will usually tell you how to proceed on different cards. When you don't have a reasoning is when you usually find yourself not knowing what to do such as in this case. I think raising the flop is ambitious. You can do it to turn your hand into a bluff vs Kx but a fish never folds Kx so that plan doesn't make sense. Next, you could raise to make him fold some flushdraw, now or later. You have the second best draw, you actually want him to hit his weaker flush and stack him. Raising again doesn't make much sense. It can make sense to raise/4bet if he would bet/3bet weak and fold to your shoves or stacks off a lot of weaker draws. Otherwise, just call and play IP imo. Your made hand is weak and if you can't get a butload of money in now, when your equity is great, you always have a tough time on turn and river.
    • Ghartman
      Ghartman
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.10.2011 Posts: 270
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      @Flop play: Why do you raise? Your reasoning will usually tell you how to proceed on different cards. When you don't have a reasoning is when you usually find yourself not knowing what to do such as in this case. I think raising the flop is ambitious. You can do it to turn your hand into a bluff vs Kx but a fish never folds Kx so that plan doesn't make sense. Next, you could raise to make him fold some flushdraw, now or later. You have the second best draw, you actually want him to hit his weaker flush and stack him. Raising again doesn't make much sense. It can make sense to raise/4bet if he would bet/3bet weak and fold to your shoves or stacks off a lot of weaker draws. Otherwise, just call and play IP imo. Your made hand is weak and if you can't get a butload of money in now, when your equity is great, you always have a tough time on turn and river.
      Well i raise for value. Even if he has the Ace high flush draw on the flop, I'm ahead. I'm happy to get stacks in on this flop all day. Is top pair & 2nd nut flush draw that weak? When he flats my raise though, I'm curious if this would be a good barrel card. Q 10 gets there, AK/AJ, A:diamond: x etc....but weaker, stubborn flush draws, Jx, random floats and other stuff miss.

      Thanks for your response but you didn't actually answer my question regarding this hand as played, with all due respect. I actually just checked behind and checked it down. Could I barrel this turn and fold to further action considering I was the original pre-flop raiser?

      Thanks
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,908
      What worse hand than K2 stacks off on the flop? Do you know he stacks of with draws a bunch of draws?

      Why do you think you should bet the turn? Why do you think you should not bet the turn?

      I think your flop raise is bad without info because you can never play turns well. That means the answer to your question is never going to be correct because there are arguments for betting and checking. I would say betting is better because his range improves there but doesn't improve so much so we need to fear of getting check/raised of our hand plus our equity will still be decent.
    • elchipriota
      elchipriota
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2012 Posts: 438
      Number of weaker draws+Kx combos > Nut flush draw combos

      therefore its more +EV imo to check to keep his bluffs+ weaker hands in the game.