Huge Success In Poker - Hard Work vs. Natural Ability

    • maythany
      maythany
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      Joined: 18.10.2011 Posts: 1,189
      I found this thread at another poker forum so I decided to post it here to see what everyone's opinion on this matter is.

      Thanks,

      MB


      This may be kind of confusing and i'm not quite sure how to word this but i'm really interested to hear everyones opinion on how much hard work is involved in being a TOP online player (ie. ranked player) vs. how much is just that individual "getting it" ...... I guess what I mean by this, do you guys think that "anyone" that spends huge amounts of time reading books/reviewing HH/talking to other players (forums) could make it large playing online or do you think some people just "get the game" and some people don't.

      My dad has been a stock/options trader for his whole life and has done really well but is by no means an all star trader or anything but he watches me play poker all the time and always comments on how similiar the two jobs are. Which is really cool because I only play for a little extra income and it's certainly not a job for me but it's great to have a parent who understands that skilled gambling is NOT the same as rolling a dice. It makes my blood boil when you tell people you play poker or that you have dreams of playing poker for a living one day and they automatically assume you're some degenerate gambler who needs immediate assistance.

      Anyways, where I was going with the stock trading thing was that my dad always told me that the best traders he traded with were usually not the smartest people he's ever met, not always the hardest workers but they all just had this natural uncanny ability to predict the market.. Is this the same as poker??? Or can anyone start from the bottom and become an elite player if they pour their heart and soul into learning the game?

      That's probably not written very well but i was just wondering what your guys thoughts were on that..

      Thanks!!!!
  • 24 replies
    • nokifpp
      nokifpp
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      Joined: 03.02.2012 Posts: 123
      I honestly think you can learn the game once you fully commit yourself. I can speak from personal experiance when i tryed to learn a dear friend of mine that it is impossible unless they fully commit.
      Its always the wish of a fast income boost that prevails. But we all know it takes a lot more than just luck and muschle size.
      But on the other hand i do not understand people playing Nl2 for two years.
      To be really honest with you I think you need a good start, healthy bankroll and a good mindset.
    • i5bet72o
      i5bet72o
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,615
      Like anything in life, in order to be a top tier world class poker player you need to put in a ton of hard work, and have a killer natural ability.
      I will admit that luck does also have a place. Eg: if you bink a large small stakes tournament you can move up stakes much faster, if you live in a city with very soft very big live games this may build your BR quicker, etc.
    • maythany
      maythany
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      Joined: 18.10.2011 Posts: 1,189
      I agree
    • aXSesPS
      aXSesPS
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      Joined: 13.12.2010 Posts: 61
      Hi

      I believe close to 100% commitment and hard work can achieve anything, be it poker, chess, mathematics, biology, street sweeping.
      You get out what you put in.

      :-)


      (now all I need to do is follow m own advice)
    • maythany
      maythany
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.10.2011 Posts: 1,189
      Originally posted by aXSesPSRNMD
      Hi

      I believe close to 100% commitment and hard work can achieve anything, be it poker, chess, mathematics, biology, street sweeping.
      You get out what you put in.

      :-)


      (now all I need to do is follow m own advice)
      +1

      I am with you on this one.
    • Ufonautas
      Ufonautas
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      Joined: 30.07.2012 Posts: 32
      Originally posted by aXSesPSRNMD
      Hi

      I believe close to 100% commitment and hard work can achieve anything, be it poker, chess, mathematics, biology, street sweeping.
      You get out what you put in.

      :-)


      (now all I need to do is follow m own advice)
      This! This ! THIS!

      If you'll let me, ill use this as my signature.
    • SteffenBAOPP
      SteffenBAOPP
      Basic
      Joined: 29.01.2013 Posts: 11
      I definitely agree with AxsesPSRNMDs post.

      The thing I find with poker is, that even players who really want to work hard at it, don't understand how to. This is something I try to improve on. Like doing the hand reading game or plotting flops and calling ranges into flopzilla.

      A lot of players wrongly assume that working hard at poker is playing a lot and reading forums a bunch, when the reality is more about sitting on your own reviewing hands and handranges and running equity calcs.
    • suaveplayer
      suaveplayer
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      Joined: 08.08.2009 Posts: 109
      In actuality nobody knows the true answer to this.


      People who reach the highest levels in this game probably have both a great deal of natural talent and also practiced (invested a lot of time thinking about the game/plays, etc) a lot.


      If you are reasonably intelligent you can do fairly well in this game. However, I feel that some people would be forever terrible at poker.

      Some of my friends simply don´t have the type of intelligence it takes to be a skilled player, just by the absurd stuff they say when we are having some sort of logical argument and they make statements that plain just don´t make sense, even though they think it does, it´s funny to watch.
    • Erevos
      Erevos
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      Joined: 09.01.2011 Posts: 129
      So you are telling me anyone can be a grandmaster or get a phd at mathematics if decides to commit himself? Not really....
    • Toothless32
      Toothless32
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      Joined: 10.01.2011 Posts: 210
      I think intelligence and talent is kind of overrated and it should not limit anybody. If someone is very intelligent or has very good analytical mind then its easier for him to master the game. but that does not mean that the one who does not have these abilities cannot be better someday. Like if you play 5h per day and study another two you can be super dumb and you will still be making big progress, even though the person with IQ 150 would probably need less time.

      Imo the two most important things are just self criticism, and will to improve.

      .... OR u can just run hot xD
    • maythany
      maythany
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      Joined: 18.10.2011 Posts: 1,189
      [quote]Originally posted by suaveplayer
      In actuality nobody knows the true answer to this.


      People who reach the highest levels in this game probably have both a great deal of natural talent and also practiced (invested a lot of time thinking about the game/plays, etc) a lot.


      If you are reasonably intelligent you can do fairly well in this game. However, I feel that some people would be forever terrible at poker.

      Some of my friends simply don´t have the type of intelligence it takes to be a skilled player, just by the absurd stuff they say when we are having some sort of logical argument and they make statements that plain just don´t make sense, even though they think it does, it´s funny to watch.[/quote]

      Please elaborate :s_cool:
    • suaveplayer
      suaveplayer
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      Joined: 08.08.2009 Posts: 109
      [quote]Originally posted by maythany
      Originally posted by suaveplayer
      In actuality nobody knows the true answer to this...


      Some of my friends simply don´t have the type of intelligence it takes to be a skilled player, just by the absurd stuff they say when we are having some sort of logical argument and they make statements that plain just don´t make sense, even though they think it does, it´s funny to watch.[/quote]

      Please elaborate :s_cool:
      For example, where I live we have this local card game (which is not really played for money like poker does) it involves bets and raises in the form of points, but it doesnt work quite like poker.

      At one instance I saw one typical play that the average player of this game does and I tried to explain why the play is not really logical: some player makes a strong bet trying to rep a strong hand, the other player is not really sure if he is bluffing or not but somehow raises his bet with a hand that should only be calling said strong bet.

      I tried to explain that if you believe villain is bluffing but you´re not entirely sure and you have a hand that beats bluffs but doesnt beat legit strong hands you should only call his bet and not at all make a raise.

      Their counter argument is "I think he is bluffing therefore I raise", certain that said argument makes sense, and my counter argument was like "you should only bluff a bluff if your hand is worse than his bluff and not turn a bluff catcher into a bluff". They seem totally unable to understand this reasoning, and keep on doing dumb plays like these.

      I fucking hate said game exactly because there is not money involved, and as such and can´t punish people that make plays like that.
    • ursusmm
      ursusmm
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      Joined: 20.08.2008 Posts: 5,871
      Average but hardworking always beats brilliant but lazy.
    • maythany
      maythany
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      Joined: 18.10.2011 Posts: 1,189
      Originally posted by ursusmm
      Average but hardworking always beats brilliant but lazy.
      +1
    • elchipriota
      elchipriota
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      Joined: 06.06.2012 Posts: 438
      Originally posted by Erevos
      So you are telling me anyone can be a grandmaster or get a phd at mathematics if decides to commit himself? Not really....
      At least for Phd yes everyone can do it.

      Difference being that a naturally skilled person in mathematics will finish in 4 years, somebody who doesnt have that natural talent (like me) with hard work will do it maybe in 10 years :)
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
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      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944


      Just read this.
    • Alficor1
      Alficor1
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      Joined: 16.06.2010 Posts: 7,291
      Originally posted by jbpatzer


      Just read this.
      Cliffs?
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      hard work is talent imo
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by maythany
      Originally posted by ursusmm
      Average but hardworking always beats brilliant but lazy.
      +1
      Thats what stupid ppl tell themselves to make themselves feel better :)

      And very few ppl are ''average'', the fact is that 50% of them are simply bellow average.

      And yes i do agree that Average/hardworking will always beat brilliant and lazy, but in poker terms, it takes more then average/hardworking to become Ivey, Galfond or Tom Dawn, those guys are all both brilliant and hardworking. It simply takes both.
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