New To Poker

    • adamrothwell
      adamrothwell
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.08.2012 Posts: 733
      Hi, i'm fairly new to poker. I enjoy playing MTT and sit and go's with 45 players +. I am reading Harringtons books mostly and reading posts on here. I have started playing 0.25 45 player sit and go's 2 tables at a time usually. Am I wise to keep on playing these until I start to get ITM / win some. Will I be able to build a bankroll playing these, The prizes are very small. I just thought it would be a good way to get experience. Where would you advise I move up to after these, some $1 tournaments?. thanks.
  • 20 replies
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 236
      Those 0.25 45-mans are great bankroll builders. I made over $180 playing 1,500 of these. So yes, I think you should definitely concentrate on them. The $1 45-mans on 'stars are just as soft as the 0.25 games, and I recommend a bankroll of 150 buy-ins to cover variance. These games are chock full of donks and calling stations. Which is what you want, but at the same time, you will go through periods of getting rivered one game after another because the fish won't lay bottom pair down.
    • adamrothwell
      adamrothwell
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.08.2012 Posts: 733
      thanks arthur, ok great i will do. did you make the $180 mostly by coming 1st?.did it take you long to consistently get ITM? is it a good idea to learn from harringtons books aswell as on here?. I'm going to buy HEM2 when i make enough money to buy it. I have trialled it before.
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 236
      One tip about MMTs. Don't play to min cash. Play to win!!!!!! This is the most profitable strategy to take. You will need about 5,000 chips for the final table. If you are down to say 3,000 chips near the FT bubble, don't be afraid of taking a 60:40 to double up, or re-steal limped pots by shoving over the top. If you bust out, you bust out. Better than min cashing all the time which will give you a low ROI.

      For example, my average itm for these games is about 20%. But my ROI is close to 50% after 1,500 games. Some players have better itm than me, but less ROI. So always play to win. Not by being reckless. You should play a solid game. Especially during the early levels. Play only Ace King, pocket tens or higher, early levels. As well as set-mining with small pairs if you can limp for cheap. Don't chase draws by playing 6/7 suited. Leave that for cash game. Just sit and wait for big hands. The donks will call you when you bet. :D

      My worst downswing was 38 buy-ins. You will experience this a lot! But the upswings will come. Just play a tight and solid game early on. Gamble near the FT bubble if you need to. Always aim to have a minimum of 5,000 chips, or more,for the final table. 6,000, or more, would be better still.
    • adamrothwell
      adamrothwell
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.08.2012 Posts: 733
      Cheers for that advice that's really useful. At what point did you move up from the 0.25 games? and did you move straight to the $1 games?. What do you play now?. I may play a couple of $1 MTT's a week aswell just for the experience of larger tournaments.
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 236
      I have been playing Pokerstrategy $100 freerolls, along with the affiliated sites' freerolls that I have an account with. I managed to grind a decent bankroll from freerolling alone. Spread evenly over several pokersites.

      I have my eye on ipoker's $5.50 SNGs in the near future. Since Everest and Betfair joined the network they appear to be so much softer. More so than similar SNGS at pokerstars. So I might stick with ipoker now that traffic has improved, along with the softness of SNGs.

      I haven't played on 'stars that much because of all the freerolling. But will do so soon. But I can confirm that the $1 45-mans are just as easy as the 0.25.
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Silver
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,944
      Thank you indeed arthurbentley :)
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 236
      Originally posted by adamrothwell
      Cheers for that advice that's really useful. At what point did you move up from the 0.25 games? and did you move straight to the $1 games?. What do you play now?. I may play a couple of $1 MTT's a week aswell just for the experience of larger tournaments.
      You need 150 buy-ins to comfortably play the 45-mans. So you need $150 for the $1 games. You could play the $1 games with an aggressive bankroll of $80. But you must drop back down to 0.25 if you lose half of your bankroll. (40 buy-ins).
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,488
      Everything arthurbentley posted is absolutely spot on.

      I play MTTs tend to freeze near the bubble and I have an ITM of 24% and ROI of under 20%. I have been working on being more aggressive near the bubble so I expect my ITM to drop and hopefully my ROI to rise.

      I wouldn't write of suited connectors though, because a lot of people limp pots at that level and SCs play so well multi way. However if you do get a maniac or LAG at your table, probably best to put it away. If your table plays passive and it often will (I've been in a few .25, .50 and $1 games just full of rocks and TAGs) SCs are gold.

      It is important to get HEM or PT because as you'll be coming up against the same players often, you will quickly be able to profile your opponents before a hand is even dealt.

      When playing 45 man SnGs on Stars, be careful about playing too tight in the turbos.

      Also PokerStars have $0.25c ($100 added) and $0.10c ($50 added) MTTs a couple of times a day. They are also pretty soft.
    • adamrothwell
      adamrothwell
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.08.2012 Posts: 733
      cheers , i've been taking your advice onboard.

      I've been playing the 0.25 44 mans for the past few days and only got ITM once. I've done what i've never done before and played good cards pretty aggressively around the flop, causing me to get beat right on the bubble a few times, however i'm sure I pushed in pretty good spots just got beat usually when they hit their out on the river.

      I'm still making silly plays or being passive at times when i shouldn't be. I know I have a lot of leaks so i guess it's going to take me a while and probably lose a lot of my BR before i to start to finish ITM more.

      I'm enjoying it though, i just need to start studying the game a bit more. Any advice on the best ways to learn?

      cheers.
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 236
      You are going to laugh when I tell you this. :D There is on the market a MMT simulator whose artificial intelligence exactly replicates the playing standard of the 0.25 45-mans. It's available for around £3 in the shops, or on ebay. It is called, "World Series of Poker, Tournaments of Champions." By Activism for Xbox360, or playstation 3.


      Seriously, I learned to play poker playing this very game. Against horrible computer opponents. Who won't lay a hand down, or donk shove with rags. If you can master this video game, you will crack the 0.25 45-mans for sure. :f_biggrin:
    • adamrothwell
      adamrothwell
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.08.2012 Posts: 733
      lol :) Might check it out if I find it cheap somewhere for the ps3 :) . Are the skills and expereince you gain in these 45 man's useful for moving up into larger MTT's eventually? I suppose as you progress you have to learn to adapt to more skillfull players?
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 236
      Yes. If you want to learn MMT best place to start is the 45-mans; then 90-mans, and then 180-mans. So forth and so on. In my opinion. I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me to start at 45-mans. Master it, then move up to 90-mans. Etc.

      Don't feel too down if all is not going well. These games are high variance. Even winning players have long break-even, or losing streaks. So until you have played several hundred games, don't feel bad about your game. If you make mistakes, just make a note of them.
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 236
      [Edited by HollyMichelle]

      As much as we appreciate your help here - you cannot copy and paste material from another site on this forum - we are after all a Poker school :)

      - Gary
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 236
      That is why I did not provide a link, or mention the author, or indeed mention the name of any site. I could have said I was the author of the article and you would have been none the wiser.

      You have not deleted my other posts where I give advice about 45-mans. So I am wondering if you deleted it because the information came freely from the internet. Even though no link, or mention of any site, was ever mentioned. Or did you simply delete the advice because it possibly conflicts with strategy articles above Bronze level?

      Adam, I suggest that you google: "45-man tournament strategy guide." ;)
    • adamrothwell
      adamrothwell
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.08.2012 Posts: 733
      thanks for that advice. I've been learning on here, on that guide you suggested and reading books. I've played about 20 of those tournaments over the past few days only finishing ITM once in 5th place although my stack was about 3rd at the time and i pushed hard for the win perhaps too hard. I've finished 8,10,9,11,12,12,14. I keep either getting close to the bubble and losing head ups against someone or get to the bubble with not enough chips. I'm starting the think I should play more carefully when i have plenty of chips at the bubble.
      I've looked at my stats and when my vpip and pfr are lowest i've gone further in the tournament. It's pretty frustrating though, especially when i don't get any good hands at all and my stack is low, i find it difficult to play any drawing hands.
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,488
      Just watched you play a couple of 45 manners. Some sick suckouts......KK vs 55, AK vs AJ.

      I do think you need to use position better. When people fold to you in late position, you need to look at widening your range as to steal blinds.

      There seemed to be a lot of sameness about your showdown cards.

      If you don't already have it, download PokerStrategy Equilab (it's free). You can get the hand chart and use the slider to adjust perceived hand ranges.

      From what I saw today, you were playing VPIP/PFR of about 10/6 which is probably too tight.

      In Equilab !0% VPIP equates to 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo

      20% equates to 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo which is a much better range and harder for villains to read.

      Don't be discouraged by suckouts. If you keep getting your money in with the best hand, you'll end up +EV.
    • adamrothwell
      adamrothwell
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.08.2012 Posts: 733
      Hi Lazza, I really appreciate you watching me / offering advice yesterday.

      Ok great so firstly in late position when they fold to me I should raise 2-5 bb with a much wider range with the hope of them folding and if they reraise I fold?.

      ok great i'll try and play closer to that 20% range you suggested.with cards like j9s, t9s Should I be looking to limp in early or middle positions when ppl have already called?. I find it hard to figure out when i should be calling or raising with lower ards in that range. Should I be looking to get in and see a cheap flop with low range cards. Also I suppose I need more skills on the flop when i'm playing more marginal hands to figure out when i'm ahead.


      -- ok i've just played a range of roughly the 20% you suggested. I felt a bit more uncomfortable and ended up with some trickier decisions which i think i played badly. I did however manage to steal a few blinds which was good
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,488
      No worries mate.

      The best positions to steal from is late position i.e SB, BU, CO and the hijack. It's still something you have to be careful about because most times you'll be trying to steal through and from the same players and eventually people will get shitty and shove back.

      Another reason for stealing is maintaining your chip stack when you are card dead. Stealing once per orbit pays for your next orbit.

      Stealing becomes more advantageous once antes have started. It can be unprofitable and dangerous to steal on the first couple of levels as fish are quire happy to shove 75BB. If they do shove early, never call unless you have AA or KK. I don't like playing AK, because of the chance of being up against a pocket pair. You DON'T coin flip for 75 BBs.

      Don't be afraid on the bubble to shove/steal from late position into short stacks. Most short stacks are waiting for a big hand and will fold easily. When you use a HUD, Important stats to look at are fold to raise and 3Bet%.

      The table dynamic can change. I've been multitabling running VPIP/PFR of 30/13 on one table and the other 18/10. Your play can be influenced by others. Some days the aggression at a particular table will have you folding all but premium hands.

      David Sklansky endorses the GAP effect. This basically means you need a better hand to call a raise than to open raise yourself. An example...... You raise from the CO with ATo, the small blind shoves, you have to fold. Player in EP2 open raises, you have ATo in the CO. Now to call you need a better hand like AQ or AK, so you fold.

      Harrington talks about "defining your hand". This has a couple of positive effects. The first person to bet at a pot often wins it. I like to bet at a pot post flop with OESDs and flush draws in position. The reason for this is 1) Everybody folds and you win pot 2) Player(s) flat call which allows you to either continue showing strength on the turn or if I miss my draw, check behind and get a free card. 3) You get raised which makes an easy fold. Never chase draws wiithout the proper pot odds.

      Don't fall in love with ATo KJo or KTo. These hands look good on paper, but have the potential to cost you a lot of chips.

      When stealing you should almost always fold to a reraise. Players at micros are generally not restealing. If they are reraising you than they probably have a better hand than you.

      When blind are low you should be stealing with 3-4x raises and as the blinds get larger you can reduce that ratio gradually i.e. Blinds at 20/40 raise 3-4x and buy the time it gets to 150/300/50 raise 2-2.5x.

      SC play really well multi way. They are definitely a limpers hand and shouldn't be played to a reraise. If someone raises in early position and two or more people flat call behind you can call. Also they are "fit or fold" hands, meaning if you miss the flop you're out of there. Don't bet or call to chase runner-runner. Don't play one gappers lower than T8 or two gappers lower than J8. Unsuited straight connectors I don't normally play unless they are broadway and maybe T9. The reasoning behind this is that these type of hands have to be able to also win hands when you hit a pair.

      Also if you feel you are likely to be raised, fold them.

      Don't be afraid to bet at dry boards. Example (This really happened in a 25 cent 45 manner) .... I'm in MP with 66, I raise and get called by BU. Shit I'm OOP now I have to hit set. Flop comes 752 rainbow. What would he call a raise with. Obviously high - mid pocket pair or two high cards. You are crushed by a high - mid pocket pair, 77, 55 or 22 but ahead of everything else. After consideration I discount 77, 55 and 22 because I don't think anyone should be flat calling a raise with those holdings. However he would flat with 99+, AK or AQ. So I "define" my hand. I bet 60% pot. He calls. Oh well now it's just about time to give it up. Turn 8. Hmmmmm..... now I have an OESD as well, but I need to find out what villain is thinking so I check, he checks. Wtf, I've probably still got the best hand. I'm thinking he has two high cards or is slowplaying AA or KK on a non threatening board. River 9. Wow, got the straight. There's no way he could put me on a 6 so I checked. He bets pot, I shove over the top and he tanks and tanks and eventually calls and turns over 99 for a rivered set. I won that hand because rather than play my cards, I played the board against him. He lost that hand because he played too passively. I would have folded to any raise or bet from him, even on the turn when I had OESD because I wouldn't have got the pot odds to call.

      Don't be too worried about being uncomfortable. You will start too recognise the people you can steal through and from. Some players wil fold too any raise unless they have a pair or AK.
    • ThatGuyMatt
      ThatGuyMatt
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2010 Posts: 3,759
      Some awesome posts going on here guys, he'll be destroying the tables in no time !
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