small 4bets

    • x3mwisp
      x3mwisp
      Platinum
      Joined: 31.03.2009 Posts: 3,604
      Hi guys!

      I've not posted here but I think you could help me out. I'm playing NL100 zoom and i know there are some experts on this here.

      How do you react do small 4bets from blinds vs late positions (esp BU)?
      Like you have a reg who raises to 2.5x from BU his steal ~50% f3bet here 78% 4bet 21% and you have ATo/ATs in bb. You make it 8 and he makes it 18.

      What do you do? Well not necessarily this hand but similar spots. Ez fold?
  • 21 replies
    • LgWz
      LgWz
      Black
      Joined: 26.05.2007 Posts: 7,641
      Against small 4bets with 100bb stacks I like to develop a flatting range (yes even oop) as well as a 5b/f and 5b/c range. Reasoning is that we get decent odds to call and bad risk-reward to 5bet shove as a bluff.
    • ShyPh
      ShyPh
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.01.2005 Posts: 133
      I'm no expert, but isn't the standard line to fold ATo and shove ATs?
    • x3mwisp
      x3mwisp
      Platinum
      Joined: 31.03.2009 Posts: 3,604
      You know for all-in the suited makes it a 4% difference. Why is it standart then? I thought that standart vs a 4bet is to fold but then what lgwz said makes sense. What kind of ranges are you talking about? Depends on the opponent? Depends on ur own stats?
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      18 over 8 is standard to me. don't think this is particularly small
    • x3mwisp
      x3mwisp
      Platinum
      Joined: 31.03.2009 Posts: 3,604
      Ok. The idea was small. Let's say 2.5/8/16. Happens a lot. For example he makes it 2x.
    • axelphoney
      axelphoney
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2009 Posts: 2,397
      Much better to make a smallish 5bet imo, if you face a small 4bet w/o any reads.
    • x3mwisp
      x3mwisp
      Platinum
      Joined: 31.03.2009 Posts: 3,604
      Originally posted by axelphoney
      Much better to make a smallish 5bet imo, if you face a small 4bet w/o any reads.
      How about the metagame. What it would develop into?
    • breena
      breena
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2010 Posts: 412
      Meh if we 5bet we have to call a ship for sure.

      I like flatting but would probably fold first 2 cause Im a pussy
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      i do flat a lot vs 2X but vs 2.2 or 2.3 i don't flat too much if we are not deep.

      Mostly with suited broadway type of hands, some suited Aces, and some middle suited connectors like T9s. These hands have very good playability which is why they can be defended in these spots.
    • x3mwisp
      x3mwisp
      Platinum
      Joined: 31.03.2009 Posts: 3,604
      Thx mbml and lgwz. Makes sense. Will go and work on that.
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      yeah, having calling and something like 5bet minraise range makes sense in theory. Only problem is to develop these ranges. I've tried that and our range always ends up broadway heavy. We kinda hit Jhi or higher boards, but we're totally dead on any lower board. We need to mix in some AA, KK combos to have some play on lower boards and also we can't call all combos of AJo etc, we have to put those in our min5bet range or maybe even folding range. It can be done on paper, but it's very hard at table. ofc it's not that important to have perfect ranges here unless we play high stakes, but I'd recommend to test playability on many board textures for each range because it's very easy to mess up this and have a range which can hit only few boards.
    • Itsnevereasy
      Itsnevereasy
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.08.2010 Posts: 381
      I agree with everything that has been said so far. Flatting with suited broadways is fine, having a 5bet/folding range is fine, etc.

      I would just like to add that you can still 5bet ship profitably with with ATs,pocket pairs, Axs if you are not confident calling OOP. You have to look at your skills realistically... vs some opponents, i think i have an edge in these 4bet pots OOP while vs others I will just shove and take it down even if its a smaller 4bet. For sure if he's 4betting to 18bbs 20% of the time it seems quite profitable to shove, didn't do the maths though...
    • x3mwisp
      x3mwisp
      Platinum
      Joined: 31.03.2009 Posts: 3,604
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $1(BB) Poker Stars
      SB ($142)
      Hero ($100)
      UTG ($100)
      UTG+1 ($207)
      CO ($232)
      BTN ($203)

      Dealt to Hero 7:heart: 6:heart:

      fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $2, fold, Hero raises to $7, BTN raises to $15, Hero calls $8

      FLOP ($30.50) Q:diamond: 3:club: 3:spade:

      Hero checks, BTN bets $13, Hero raises to $27, BTN folds

      Hero shows 7:heart: 6:heart:

      Hero wins $53.96

      Is this the kind of range and play I should be building? Villain aggro reg obviously.

      Ps: Leatherass gives confidence :) + Thx guys for the input. It all makes perfect sense. Although ATs is profitable i prefer flatting with it cause of playability and just shipping A3s cause otherwise - I'll be 3betting too much. I'm playing zoom so that is why I'm very interested in the theory-wise question because you can rarely just choose the spot deducted from the dynamic.
    • breena
      breena
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2010 Posts: 412
      Dont like the hand at all raising makes no sense on this flop and we have committed half our stack.
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      Originally posted by mbml
      i do flat a lot vs 2X but vs 2.2 or 2.3 i don't flat too much if we are not deep.
      Extra depth hurts us.
    • GlitlrPS
      GlitlrPS
      Basic
      Joined: 13.02.2013 Posts: 70
      Originally posted by ShyPh
      I'm no expert, but isn't the standard line to fold ATo and shove ATs?
      I don't think you should ever have a "standard" play for such an intricate situation. If you do, then you are too handcuffed by rules. Standards are ok to win, but if you want to win big you have to break free of the rules.

      Hope this helps!
    • jachis
      jachis
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 745
      Originally posted by lnternet
      Originally posted by mbml
      i do flat a lot vs 2X but vs 2.2 or 2.3 i don't flat too much if we are not deep.
      Extra depth hurts us.
      Can you elaborate on this?
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      Maybe as a short cut answer from a high perspective.

      When we decide to call a 4bet our range and our opponents range will be asymmetric in a way which is similar to a {nuts,air} vs {bluffcatcher} range matchup. He will 4bet AA and K5, while we will be calling AJ KQ. With such a range matchup, the nuts/air range gains EV the more money there is to bet, because the nuts can value bet bigger and more bluffs are possible. While the weaker range suffers the more money there is left, because facing big bets with bluffcatchers is worse than facing small ones.

      Of course this is an oversimplification but it should still explain pretty well why we prefer not to be deep when calling 4bets with a range that is of medium strength.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      i agree that broadways are better for calling with shallower stacks, but does it change with AXs and 78s?
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