[NL2-NL10] NL4 SH, KK against river shove

    • dienaszaglis
      dienaszaglis
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.06.2008 Posts: 999
      $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Holdem
      PartyPoker
      5 Players
      Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG ($4.06) 102bb
      CO ($5.06) 127bb
      HERO (BTN) ($4.26) 107bb
      SB ($1.70) 43bb
      BB ($4) 100bb

      Pre-Flop: ($0.06, 5 players) HERO is BTN K:club: K:diamond:
      UTG calls $0.04, 1 fold, HERO raises to $0.18, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.14

      Flop: 10:club: 10:diamond: 3:club: ($0.42, 2 players)
      UTG checks, HERO bets $0.28, UTG calls $0.28

      Turn: 6:spade: ($0.98, 2 players)
      UTG checks, HERO bets $0.62, UTG calls $0.62

      River: 6:heart: ($2.22, 2 players)
      UTG checks, HERO bets $1.05, UTG goes all-in $2.98, HERO folds

      Villain is unknown.

      PRE
      Std.

      FLOP
      He`s calling with 44-99, FD`s.

      TURN
      Still getting value from PP`s and FD`s.

      RIVER
      Targeting 77-99 for value. I don`t think he would play this way with a busted FD. JJ/QQ probably would raise flop/turn. He`s probably slowplaying Tx, or got there with FD, containing a 6.
  • 10 replies
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Hey dienaszaglis,

      Hand looks fine to me.

      I definitely wouldn't bet any larger on turn + river. It would really suck if villain folded a worse PP or flush-draw because you isolate yourself vs Tx. I might even bet a little smaller on turn + river.
    • Dracsharp
      Dracsharp
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2010 Posts: 2,478
      Assuming unknown fish i wouldn't assume many mid pockets, wouldn't he raise least something ?

      Flop call

      66-33,A3s,K3s,Q3s,J3s,T5s+,Qc9c,Jc9c,Kc8c,Qc8c,Jc8c,9c8c,Ac7c,Kc7c,Qc7c,Jc7c,9c7c,8c7c,Ac6c,Kc6c,Qc6c,Jc6c,9c6c,8c6c,7c6c,Ac5c,Kc5c,Qc5c,Jc5c,9c5c,8c5c,7c5c,6c5c,Ac4c,Kc4c,Qc4c,Jc4c,Ac2c,Kc2c,Qc2c,A9o-A2o,KTo,QTo,JTo,T7o+

      Turn call

      66-33,T5s+,Qc9c,Jc9c,Kc8c,Qc8c,Jc8c,9c8c,Ac7c,Kc7c,Qc7c,Jc7c,9c7c,8c7c,Ac6c,Kc6c,Qc6c,Jc6c,9c6c,8c6c,7c6c,Ac5c,Kc5c,Qc5c,Jc5c,9c5c,8c5c,7c5c,6c5c,Ac4c,Kc4c,Qc4c,Jc4c,Ac3c,Kc3c,Qc3c,Jc3c,Ac2c,Kc2c,Qc2c,KTo,QTo,JTo,T7o+

      Riv call

      66,T5s+,Kc8c,Kc7c,Kc6c,Kc5c,Kc4c,Kc3c,Qc3c,KTo,QTo,JTo,T7o+

      You give him too little credit for tx even if he has mid pp at the end he will have a lot more tx.

      Even if we aim at his mid pp and Ax by betting small we can't really.

      99-66,T5s+,Ac9c,Ac8c,Kc8c,Ac7c,Kc7c,Ac6c,Kc6c,Ac5c,Kc5c,Ac4c,Kc4c,Ac3c,Kc3c,Qc3c,Ac2c,KTo,QTo,JTo,T7o+

      + Edit
      Would you bet the river at all and why ?
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Hey Dracsharp,

      Not sure I'm understanding your post too well :D

      Originally posted by Dracsharp
      Assuming unknown fish i wouldn't assume many mid pockets, wouldn't he raise least something ?
      Yeah, it's definitely possible he raises Tx. But I don't think he's ever raising mid-pockets. If he sometimes raises Tx there should be a higher ratio of PP's and FD's in his range.

      Originally posted by Dracsharp
      Riv call

      66,T5s+,Kc8c,Kc7c,Kc6c,Kc5c,Kc4c,Kc3c,Qc3c,KTo,QTo,JTo,T7o+
      Why is villain calling with K high and Q high. You really think he will bluff-catch?

      Originally posted by Dracsharp
      You give him too little credit for tx even if he has mid pp at the end he will have a lot more tx.
      I don't understand this, for the reason mentioned above. Also hero did give villain credit for having a boat, that's why he folded to river raise.

      Originally posted by Dracsharp
      + Edit
      Would you bet the river at all and why ?
      Hero did bet the river ?(
    • Dracsharp
      Dracsharp
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2010 Posts: 2,478
      "Assuming unknown fish i wouldn't assume many mid pockets, wouldn't he raise least something ? "

      This is meant for his preflop limp.


      "Why is villain calling with K high and Q high. You really think he will bluff-catch?"

      The calling range i selected has no q or k highs in it. The mistake is yours.



      I am questioning the validity of a river bet, considering what kind of range he could call it with, even if he calls it with Ax, we shouldn't assume he would have raised his trips earlier because he is a fish.
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Originally posted by Dracsharp
      This is meant for his preflop limp.
      Fair point. But if he is decent is isn't limping anything UTG. He can definitely have some mid-PP's imo.

      Originally posted by Dracsharp
      The calling range i selected has no q or k highs in it. The mistake is yours.
      I'll take your word for it. So what is K:c7 on T:cT:d3 6 6 ?
      or what about Q:c3?


      Originally posted by Dracsharp
      I am questioning the validity of a river bet, considering what kind of range he could call it with, even if he calls it with Ax, we shouldn't assume he would have raised his trips earlier because he is a fish.
      I understand what you are saying. I wouldn't question the validity of a river bet itself, only the sizing though. Maybe a smaller bet would work, to ensure villain calls with PP's and sometimes Ax. Either way it's not like there is huge amounts of value.
    • Dracsharp
      Dracsharp
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2010 Posts: 2,478
      You are right i didn't see those hands because of card removal option was on, and i didn't remove them later. However in eqlab it looks alright. Obviously hands he can't have are irrelevant.

      I doubt you prefer it this way, eqlab needed either way.

      F
      55-44, 6d6c, 3d3h, 3d3s, 3h3s, Qc9c, Jc9c, Th9h, Ts9s, Qc8c, Jc8c, Th8h, Ts8s, 9c8c, Ac7c, Qc7c, Jc7c, Th7h, Ts7s, 9c7c, 8c7c, Ac6c, Qc6c, Jc6c, 9c6c, 8c6c, 7c6c, Ac5c, Qc5c, Jc5c, Th5h, Ts5s, 9c5c, 8c5c, 7c5c, 6c5c, Ac4c, Qc4c, Jc4c, Ad3d, Ah3h, As3s, Kh3h, Ks3s, Qd3d, Qh3h, Qs3s, Jd3d, Jh3h, Js3s, Ac2c, Qc2c, A9o-A7o, A5o-A4o, A2o, Ad6c, Ah6d, Ah6c, As6d, As6c, Ac6d, Ad3h, Ad3s, Ah3d, Ah3s, As3d, As3h, Ac3d, Ac3h, Ac3s, KhTs, KsTh, QdTh, QdTs, QhTs, QsTh, QcTh, QcTs, JdTh, JdTs, JhTs, JsTh, JcTh, JcTs, Th9d, Th9s, Th9c, Ts9d, Ts9h, Ts9c, Th8d, Th8s, Th8c, Ts8d, Ts8h, Ts8c, Th7d, Th7s, Th7c, Ts7d, Ts7h, Ts7c

      T
      55-44, 6d6c, 3d3h, 3d3s, 3h3s, Qc9c, Jc9c, Th9h, Ts9s, Qc8c, Jc8c, Th8h, Ts8s, 9c8c, Ac7c, Qc7c, Jc7c, Th7h, Ts7s, 9c7c, 8c7c, Ac6c, Qc6c, Jc6c, 9c6c, 8c6c, 7c6c, Ac5c, Qc5c, Jc5c, Th5h, Ts5s, 9c5c, 8c5c, 7c5c, 6c5c, Ac4c, Qc4c, Jc4c, Ac2c, Qc2c, KhTs, KsTh, QdTh, QdTs, QhTs, QsTh, QcTh, QcTs, JdTh, JdTs, JhTs, JsTh, JcTh, JcTs, Th9d, Th9s, Th9c, Ts9d, Ts9h, Ts9c, Th8d, Th8s, Th8c, Ts8d, Ts8h, Ts8c, Th7d, Th7s, Th7c, Ts7d, Ts7h, Ts7c

      R
      6d6c, Th9h, Ts9s, Th8h, Ts8s, Th7h, Ts7s, Th5h, Ts5s, KhTs, KsTh, QdTh, QdTs, QhTs, QsTh, QcTh, QcTs, JdTh, JdTs, JhTs, JsTh, JcTh, JcTs, Th9d, Th9s, Th9c, Ts9d, Ts9h, Ts9c, Th8d, Th8s, Th8c, Ts8d, Ts8h, Ts8c, Th7d, Th7s, Th7c, Ts7d, Ts7h, Ts7c
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Originally posted by Dracsharp

      R
      6d6c, Th9h, Ts9s, Th8h, Ts8s, Th7h, Ts7s, Th5h, Ts5s, KhTs, KsTh, QdTh, QdTs, QhTs, QsTh, QcTh, QcTs, JdTh, JdTs, JhTs, JsTh, JcTh, JcTs, Th9d, Th9s, Th9c, Ts9d, Ts9h, Ts9c, Th8d, Th8s, Th8c, Ts8d, Ts8h, Ts8c, Th7d, Th7s, Th7c, Ts7d, Ts7h, Ts7c
      Why does villain only have one combo of 66 and no combos of any other pocket pair?

      Is it possible to include some Ax combos and say villain may call a small bet with those?

      Also what if villain is raising a bunch of Tx on an earlier street....there won't be anywhere near as many combos of Tx in his river range.

      Please use "advise judge" option if you would like me to take another look at this thread. Thank you. (edit: after you posted something of course)
    • dienaszaglis
      dienaszaglis
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.06.2008 Posts: 999
      My version of villains value range on the river: TT-66,ATs-A7s,KTs,QTs,JTs,T9s,8c6c,7c6c,6c5c,ATo,KTo,QTo,JTo,T9o (put some random Ax hands)

      We still got very reasonable equity and can get some value. As w34z3l said before, should have bet less on the river for villain to call Ax.

      Also worth to note, villain would rarely c/c flop/turn and check river as well with a monster (TT/66/33). Also, Tx might even raise (x/r) on previous streets.
    • Dracsharp
      Dracsharp
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2010 Posts: 2,478
      Because he can only have one combo of 66 on the riv.

      In order for us the have the thinnest vbet he needs to raise his tx least half of the time on earlier streets.

      99-66,T7s+,T5s,Ac9c,Ac8c,Ac7c,Ac6c,Ac5c,Ac4c,Ac2c,KTo,QTo,JTo,T7o+

      We can make this bet many times no doubt about but unknown fish is who i consider capable of playing trips slow.
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Originally posted by Dracsharp
      unknown fish is who i consider capable of playing trips slow.
      This is true. But dienaszaglis makes a good point also --->

      Originally posted by dienaszaglis
      Also worth to note, villain would rarely c/c flop/turn and check river as well with a monster
      Some of these same slowplaying fish will stop slowplaying and bet if they are OOP on river.

      Originally posted by Dracsharp
      In order for us the have the thinnest vbet he needs to raise his tx least half of the time on earlier streets
      Cool thanks for the info. And I agree with you, it's going to be thin. Still profitable though perhaps.