[NL20-NL50] NL50 6max, XX, 3bet + 3bar FE?

    • Anger86
      Anger86
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2008 Posts: 511
      $50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players

      MP: $129.50 - VPIP: 26, PFR: 21, 3B: 10, AF: 2.7, Hands: 2214
      CO: $50.00 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 16, 3B: 6, AF: 1.4, Hands: 200
      BTN: $51.50 - VPIP: 17, PFR: 17, 3B: 10, AF: Infinity, Hands: 29
      SB: $74.20 - VPIP: 24, PFR: 19, 3B: 11, AF: 1.8, fold to 3bet 1/6 Hands: 285
      Hero (BB): $51.05 - VPIP: 25, PFR: 22, 3B: 11, AF: 4.9, Hands: 160473
      UTG: $50.75 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 17, 3B: 7, AF: 2.3, Hands: 122

      Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BB with XX aka AIR
      4 folds, SB raises to $1.50, Hero raises to $5, SB calls $3.50

      Flop: ($10.00) 2 :club: 5 :heart: A :club: (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $5.00, SB calls $5

      Turn: ($20.00) 5 :diamond: (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $10.00, SB calls $10

      River: ($40.00) 3 :diamond: (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $31.05, SB calls $31.05


      My main question is if I can fold out JJ-TT by the river.
      This is the spot where I'm not sure if Villain is going to fold them
      already on the turn or not.

      In game it was checked fast on the flop, which mostly means
      it's not AQ+ IMO, so not a slow play. Might be something in between smaller Ax and stubborn PP's.

      The same on the turn - fast checks + fast call.

      River checks fast again.

      My experience shows that Turn should a shut down. [Bet Turn, checks back river]

      What do you say?

      Flop calling range for OP:
      JJ-77, AQs-A9s, AQo-ATo [69 combos on the flop]

      Turn calling range:
      AQs-A9s, AQo-ATo [39 combos]

      It looks like Turn bet is fine as I need only 33% of folds with 1/2 PSB.

      River is likely overplayed.
  • 5 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,904
      Hola,

      Snap = easy decision usually imo so the easy decisions here are usually to call any Ax and to call just about any flushdraw. That will be most of the range I put him on when we get to the river and would discount any other middle pairs from the turn usually. It's usually not a good idea to make someone fold TP in 3bet pot in these positions since it will almost never happen so I would usually give up unless I think he has enough good draws that fold to my river bet.
    • Anger86
      Anger86
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2008 Posts: 511
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Hola,

      Snap = easy decision usually imo so the easy decisions here are usually to call any Ax and to call just about any flushdraw.
      I like your reply. Makes a lot of sense.
      Another question though.

      In a vacuum: Do you think that fast call IP is also the same = easy decision?

      I find it easier to bluff IP, when I see fast checks, alhough this board is not a perfect case, but in general.

      But when OP snap call IP I tend to rather force them, if
      smthg draw heavy board (DHB) comes and I can discount a lot of sets and better
      monster draws (but that based on players - look below).

      Another question:

      Does it make sense to think that:

      Passive player fast checks = might be anything - even sets or TPTK on DHB.

      Aggressive player fast checks = almost never sets or TPTK on DHB.

      Overaggressive = might even make a decision to bluff raise after I bet,
      even though timing tall doesn't make any sense, but ussually still will take time with better holdings.
      -----

      I started to think about it how player can be in his natural thinking and clicking pattern. Passive could always check fast and have paid a price thinking different. :)
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,904
      Ah, don't read THAT much into timing tells... They are definitely not associated with player types.. They are more of a player style, thinking capabilities.. It's usually a sign of unconscious decisoins/competency (he can autopilot that spot) so some might autopilot and snap do everything, some bluff a bit more, some vbet, etc.. You should make timing notes on each player, not on player types. The decision itself might not be easy, it's just that he processes it fast and acts quickly as well.
    • Anger86
      Anger86
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2008 Posts: 511
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Ah, don't read THAT much into timing tells... They are definitely not associated with player types.. They are more of a player style, thinking capabilities.. It's usually a sign of unconscious decisoins/competency (he can autopilot that spot) so some might autopilot and snap do everything, some bluff a bit more, some vbet, etc.. You should make timing notes on each player, not on player types. The decision itself might not be easy, it's just that he processes it fast and acts quickly as well.
      Thanks. Makes a lot of sense.

      ->a sign of unconscious decisoins/competency (he can autopilot that spot) so some might autopilot and snap do everything, some bluff a bit more, some vbet, etc..

      I actually am taking notes on specific opponents. Good to hear this kind of feedback. Makes me think more about players mindsets/mental game compared to generally viewed player styles.

      Ex. If I have a note on a player that he fast x/c some Kxxr with KJo. It won't mean the same for a J75s, right?

      It's like what they have learned and use from their unconscious competence/incompetence? Meaning they will autopilot every board or situation differently.

      Thanks.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,904
      I think a lot about the psychological side of poker and how people's mindset/personality can affect their styles tbh but I probably go into too much sometimes.

      @Note: I usually note smth like 'hand type' (nuts, air, good value, thin value, etc) on 'board type' (dry broadway high, double suited middle, 3 flush, low disconnected, etc). If I write exact hand and board I have to process that info and compare it to the one I have for the current board instead of just seeing the current board and looking through notes for this specific board type.