Stievro's SnG quest!

    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Hi guys,

      I have had good feed back when I ended my other blog, so decided to start up afresh with a new database and a new chalenge. This time I am only playing SnG's and a few tournaments, all on stars.

      I am cashing about $2k out of titan, and using it towards some coaching.

      I started on stars last sunday with $11, and got it up to $140ish without BRM, but cashed $100 out for software.

      So, I started my new database with $38.08, and I am reading the articles, and watching videos as I build up. My reasons for starting again are that on titan I built my roll with cash games, then switched to SnG's. So I want to know if I have missed any knowledge, by not playing the low limits.

      I will update every 2-3 days I think, to try and keep the info flowing. I dont have any graphs or stats atm, as i've only played 25 games.


      Current roll: $59.68

      Best of luck!
      Stiev
  • 21 replies
    • finchybg
      finchybg
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2007 Posts: 910
      good luck!
      are you going to play the 180 man sng's as well?
      they're cool :)
      Some time in August I may move a part of my roll to stars and play the 10+1's which I find a nice way to practise MTT play and cash big from time to time.
      I hope we meet there :)
    • swissmoumout
      swissmoumout
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.02.2007 Posts: 3,385
      why start over again? you're losing a lot by not playing your usual limit, and I'm not sure you missed much by skipping micro-buyin sng's ^^ (assuming you were successful at higher buy-in sng's)
      but bankroll building can be fun I guess, like playing those old pokémon, or other adventure games :)
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      well, i think its reasonable
      as a cash game player, he has to learn some new skills and develop them
      which will cost time and money
      so why to pay more, especially, given that SnG's are quite swingy

      I would start from 5$ (buy-in) though
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      My ROI on the $22's was 24%, but was only over 600ish games. I am doing this to give me a new lease of life, I started getting a bit bored of poker, but now I am interested again. I do think I will learn new things from the lower limits. I actaully evaluated a low limit pokerstrategy player's game a couple of days ago, and had a play with the equalator at the same time, and learnt a few things.

      Exactly what swiss said, "bankroll building can be fun".

      @ xylere, My titan roll cant be withdrawn yet, due to not having any proof of address (which I will next week). So I couldn't deposit anything. So the $5's are out of my reach.

      @finchybg, When I have a bigger roll I will probably play the 180 man SnG's. But for the time being I'm just playing 9 man SnG's.

      GL Guys!
      Stiev
    • Alexd10
      Alexd10
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.07.2008 Posts: 609
      Hey stiev, good luck with your quest, are you just playing on stars now and will BOD buyins come from this br?
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Hi guys,
      I started off on the $1's, and wow. After 50 games I had a ROI of 66%, and worked it out, at that rate I would win the battle of the planets league by a long way. I have now played 76 games, and haven't won one tourney for about 20 games. I will be very lucky if I even place in the top 10 in the league now. Which is a real downer.

      My ROI has droped considerably, and it is due to mostly bad beats. I have also been adapting my play to each player which has cost me. These guys are so unpredictable that its unreal. ABC poker from now on, on the micro limits.



      My graph:



      I must admit it is great playing this limit, I love it. When I loose I laugh, whereas on the $55's I would curse the villains. I really am enjoying it, and it feels great to play poker again, and I was starting to lose that buzz.

      I will probably be moving up a limit in the next few days. First though I am hoping to break the top 10 on the battle of the planets, as the prizes are great. Hopefully I will reach the leader board for the $3's aswell, it shouldn't be too hard.

      Over the next few days, I want to attent a coaching, and who knows I might get round to posting a hand or two!

      @Alexd10, anything I win from the BOD is being counted seperate, and will go towards future buy-ins, and if need be I will deposit to play in them. I am not using this roll for anything out of BRM.

      Bankroll is now at $74.68, I won $11 with my FPP's which is also added into this. Just as any beginner would do.

      I'll report back in a few days!
      Thx!
      Stiev
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Whats your views on this? 4-bet preflop? Only a $1 SnG, only played a few hands, and had no reads.

      Timid?

      PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

      saw flop|saw showdown

      Button (t3110)
      SB (t1570)
      BB (t1690)
      Hero (t1470)
      UTG+1 (t1840)
      MP1 (t1360)
      MP2 (t1280)
      CO (t1180)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q.
      Hero raises to t90, 4 folds, Button raises to t150, 1 fold, BB calls t120, Hero calls t60.

      Flop: (t465) 5, 7, 4 (3 players)
      BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets t300, BB calls t300, Hero folds.

      Turn: (t1065) 8 (2 players)
      BB bets t510, Button raises to t1500, BB calls t730 (All-In).

      River: (t3805) K (2 players, 1 all-in)

      Final Pot: t3545

      Results in white below:
      BB has 6d Ah (straight, eight high).
      Button has Ac Ad (one pair, aces).
      Outcome: BB wins t3545.
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      I know the feeling of knowing your beat while holding those pocket pairs...
      But really I'm going broke on that flop...
      Seeing so many draws on the table makes me think he is semi-bluffing and the call can represent anything from overcards to some kind of a draw...
      Also since you have a 3/5 pot raise and a call it's probably an option to call and see if he can 3 barrell it...

      It was a good fold but I'm probably going broke there :D
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      i would for broke pf
      on this limit just shove it, imo
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Going broke on this limit with QQ is stupid imo. Why take away our edge in the game? We want to play poker with these guys. Min raise shouts out AA on this limit imo. I really dont see any reason to go broke preflop with QQ on any limit. What hand range to you put him on?

      Stiev
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      I am not putting him on any range)) no need to bother, imo (its like +ev lottery))
      what im doing is getting my money in as quick as possible
    • bckdrflush
      bckdrflush
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.06.2008 Posts: 154
      With the QQ UTG, Phil Gordon's mantra 'the fourth raise means aces' might come into play here.

      If you reraised instead of calling pf, and you got another raise, you can be pretty sure it's aces.. I've only ever done this once, folding KK to AA. Other people at the table thought I was crazy to fold .. but then again I'm about as green as the little book that this nugget comes from:

      "When i have a lot of chips in comparison to the blinds, I nearly always try to make the third raise with KK so that I can get away from the hand if my opponent makes the fourth raise all in. This requires a bit of planning on my part as the following chart indicates (pg 51)"
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Originally posted by bckdrflush
      With the QQ UTG, Phil Gordon's mantra 'the fourth raise means aces' might come into play here.

      If you reraised instead of calling pf, and you got another raise, you can be pretty sure it's aces.. I've only ever done this once, folding KK to AA. Other people at the table thought I was crazy to fold .. but then again I'm about as green as the little book that this nugget comes from:

      "When i have a lot of chips in comparison to the blinds, I nearly always try to make the third raise with KK so that I can get away from the hand if my opponent makes the fourth raise all in. This requires a bit of planning on my part as the following chart indicates (pg 51)"


      Not being funny but QQ is nothing like KK, and if you fold KK to a 4bet, your crazy.


      Can a mod delete the two posts before this, whenever I press enter to start a new line, It sends two posts instead. This has happened numerous times.
    • bckdrflush
      bckdrflush
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.06.2008 Posts: 154
      Ya I know KK and QQ are different hands, but the similarity offers some insight at least. Would you fold to a fourth raise easier with QQ if you'd also fold with KK?

      If you wouldn't fold a KK after a fourth raise, what is different about QQ that would get you away from it? If you call QQ you don't know where you are - say your opponents reraise range is AA, AK, AQ, KK, maybe JJ. At least the reraise gives you a better idea whether it's AA or KK. I'm just sayin..

      FWIW I don't think Phil Gordon is crazy. Folding KK to AA seems mad but sometimes it's +$EV - as Phil says in situations where the stacks are much bigger than the blinds as you have here. Read the book, see the chart on pg51 if you want to know more about why he does this and when.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      folding QQ preflop against 1 opponent in a $1 sng with 50 BB may reduce variance, but is hugely -EV in my opinion.
      firstly you only have 50BB, secondly the average opponent will go broke with a huge range of hands.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Originally posted by Kruppe
      folding QQ preflop against 1 opponent in a $1 sng with 50 BB may reduce variance, but is hugely -EV in my opinion.
      firstly you only have 50BB, secondly the average opponent will go broke with a huge range of hands.
      Not convinced. QQ is the hand I make the most profit with, and its because of situations like this. Why go broke so early and take away our edge in the game?


      Originally posted by bckdrflush
      Ya I know KK and QQ are different hands, but the similarity offers some insight at least. Would you fold to a fourth raise easier with QQ if you'd also fold with KK?

      If you wouldn't fold a KK after a fourth raise, what is different about QQ that would get you away from it? If you call QQ you don't know where you are - say your opponents reraise range is AA, AK, AQ, KK, maybe JJ. At least the reraise gives you a better idea whether it's AA or KK. I'm just sayin..

      FWIW I don't think Phil Gordon is crazy. Folding KK to AA seems mad but sometimes it's +$EV - as Phil says in situations where the stacks are much bigger than the blinds as you have here. Read the book, see the chart on pg51 if you want to know more about why he does this and when.
      OK OK, wheres the KK? Am I missing something here? I have looked at my hand over and over and still dont see any KK! So WTF? Also on the note of KK, it is never +ev to fold KK in these situations. Tribun back me up here!
      Can we plz get back to the hand, it was put here to see different views, and only xylere has done that tbh.
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      which was wrong, as i figured out)

      Against a minraise its fine to call (raise KK+) and go broke one the flop
      however, nick said he would reraise against a normal reraise
    • bckdrflush
      bckdrflush
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.06.2008 Posts: 154
      Originally posted by cannell555
      Originally posted by Kruppe
      folding QQ preflop against 1 opponent in a $1 sng with 50 BB may reduce variance, but is hugely -EV in my opinion.
      firstly you only have 50BB, secondly the average opponent will go broke with a huge range of hands.
      Not convinced. QQ is the hand I make the most profit with, and its because of situations like this. Why go broke so early and take away our edge in the game?


      Originally posted by bckdrflush
      Ya I know KK and QQ are different hands, but the similarity offers some insight at least. Would you fold to a fourth raise easier with QQ if you'd also fold with KK?

      If you wouldn't fold a KK after a fourth raise, what is different about QQ that would get you away from it? If you call QQ you don't know where you are - say your opponents reraise range is AA, AK, AQ, KK, maybe JJ. At least the reraise gives you a better idea whether it's AA or KK. I'm just sayin..

      FWIW I don't think Phil Gordon is crazy. Folding KK to AA seems mad but sometimes it's +$EV - as Phil says in situations where the stacks are much bigger than the blinds as you have here. Read the book, see the chart on pg51 if you want to know more about why he does this and when.
      OK OK, wheres the KK? Am I missing something here? I have looked at my hand over and over and still dont see any KK! So WTF? Also on the note of KK, it is never +ev to fold KK in these situations. Tribun back me up here!
      Can we plz get back to the hand, it was put here to see different views, and only xylere has done that tbh.
      My point was about the fourth raise being AA's.. I don't care if you have KK JJ or 92o... it's only an analogy from a decent poker book by a respected player. if he can fold KK I only meant it should be even easier for him to fold QQ to the fourth raise.

      I mentioned the fold being possibly +$EV, which is different than EV and not linearly related. I'm not even sure how to estimate the $EV value of a fold to a fourth raise early in a tourney, maybe a good topic for a separate thread.

      "EV: (expected value) also called chip EV, is the number of chips you can expect to end up with, on average after a specific action. An action is +EV if it raises the EV.
      $EV: this is the money value of the EV. An action is +$EV whenever it raises the $EV.
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/sng/175/#h1_3



      Note: since the EV and $EV are not linearly related (doubling the EV does not necessily double the $EV), there are actions which can be +EV but -$EV. These must be avoided since our aim is to maximize the $EV. "
    • FrozenRope
      FrozenRope
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2007 Posts: 283
      I think that going broke with QQ early in a sng is not smart, the main goal is survival. I would like to 4 bet to see where you stand, certainly the AA would have reraised the and you would have been sure he had AA. If you reraised to 250 to 300, and he shoves or comes over the top to 500 or more I think you can safely then lay down the QQ.

      Not 4 betting here let a total donk win a hand he had no business being in, in the first place. Who the hell calls with A6o to a raise and a reraise. Seems I have to find the poker school he goes to because players like that have been killing me this last week.

      Sorry to get off topic Cannel, your a great player and will go very far with your poker career, I look to you for knowledge and tips, and you have helped me more than once in IRC and for that I thank you.
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