[NL20-NL50] NL20 SH KJ FD + TP vs raise

    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,068
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.20(BB) Replayer
      SB ($20.82)
      Hero ($20)
      UTG ($22.98)
      CO ($9.80)
      BTN ($25.75)

      Dealt to Hero K:spade: J:diamond:

      UTG calls $0.20, CO calls $0.20, fold, fold, Hero raises to $1.20, UTG calls $1, CO calls $1

      FLOP ($3.70) 3:heart: 5:diamond: K:diamond:

      Hero bets $2.80, UTG calls $2.80, CO folds

      TURN ($9.30) 3:heart: 5:diamond: K:diamond: 4:diamond:

      Hero bets $4.60, UTG raises to $18.98 (AI), Hero folds

      UTG wins $17.58

      50/0 20h

      not too nitty fold? 3way pot, str or flush very posible, plus 2pairs and sets. Or pair + FD
  • 7 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Hola,

      Well, although I like the raise pre, I'm not sure about the cbet 3way with your hand because it's very hard to get value so you can actually use this hand to get value by checking and balance your checking range. You won't 3bet as a bluff often here 3way so you will check to fold quite a bit meaning you don't want to fold too often.

      As played, your turn bet is super duper thin, I don't think you can bet for value so vs the raise is even more obvious of a fold. Think of how weak your hand actually is, what do you expect to get a call from?
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,068
      I don't get why flop cbet is bad. He can easily call with K2+, 5x and ton of draws.

      On the turn there is still value from same Kx, or Kx + draw, 5x + draw.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
      I don't get why flop cbet is bad. He can easily call with K2+, 5x and ton of draws.

      On the turn there is still value from same Kx, or Kx + draw, 5x + draw.
      It's not -EV but you don't get a whole lot of value either.. K2 will not be as many combos as you think.. Do you know he limp/calls K2o+? If not, you have to start discounting combos... same goes for 5x and draws but most importantly, draws have good equity, they aren't mistaken in calling and most of all I'm thinking about my/our whole range here.. We can cbet this for value but we don't miss out on a lot if anything if we check OOP and we also protect our checking range.. If you always check to fold here you are EXPLOITED, not even exploitable, you are already exploited. This would be a hand I would consider including in my check/calling range.

      On the turn, you waaay overestimate his range imo.. Look at how many draws got there, think of what equity the other draws actually have and think how will you play river. Now, add the fact that his value range also increased a ton on that turn. Can you still value bet?
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,068
      If you always check to fold here you are EXPLOITED, not even exploitable, you are already exploited.


      I think I should then mention that CO is also a bigh fish - 62/0. (Did not tell that before because thought it does not matter since he folded)

      So I am not worrying too much that those 2 fish will exploit me. I think if I check and when they bet, I cannot even be so sure that I am good there, because they both look passive.

      If there would be a reg in position, then yeah, he can easily exploit with his bluffs.

      On turn I am more towards to agreeing.

      What about betting smaller, like 1/3 on turn to get calls from those weaker kings and underpairs?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
      If you always check to fold here you are EXPLOITED, not even exploitable, you are already exploited.


      I think I should then mention that CO is also a bigh fish - 62/0. (Did not tell that before because thought it does not matter since he folded)

      So I am not worrying too much that those 2 fish will exploit me. I think if I check and when they bet, I cannot even be so sure that I am good there, because they both look passive.

      If there would be a reg in position, then yeah, he can easily exploit with his bluffs.

      On turn I am more towards to agreeing.

      What about betting smaller, like 1/3 on turn to get calls from those weaker kings and underpairs?
      If you always check to fold you need them to bet at random and you are exploited. It's not even a debate, it's simple: if you check to fold you assume they only bet way better than your hand and no bluffs. You assume you have close to 0% equity. It's not even a fancy play for anyone to bet the turn with a bunch of hands after PFR checks because most people indeed give up waaaaay too much. If you think the fish can't exploit you, that's very bold thinking. Anyone can outplay you sometimes, don't think you are deserving to win because you study the game more. Very important to be extremely self-critical about your decisions.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,068
      its interesting. Then still there is one problem with checking flop - we don't know how agro they are postflop. I get get small bet then its easy call or c/r for value.

      But if I get 3/4 bet in multiway? What should I do then? This might easily be strong. We don't know if this is a bluff.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      When you bet, that same 'strong' range is continuing anyway. If you check, he can bet a percentage from a range containing more air plus your hand is definitely not bad since a flop bet does get you value. I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm talking more of long term range construction and also considering how much money you want into the pot.

      Unless you wanna play for stacks you have to check a street. If you check the river you can still face a bet more than you want against a reasonably strong range because air would've folded to your flop and turn bets. If you check flop, you can still bet the 2 streets if it gets checked, you face a more air heavy range that can bet and not only air heavy but also more worse value hands that feel they need to protect or along those line, giving you excellent equity to call.