Should I have done this?

    • danutz123
      Joined: 03.05.2006 Posts: 126
      I played in one of the $10.000 freerolls awhile back and I remember in particular one of the hands I played there. I played loose-aggressive at the start and got ~60 BB stack and then tightened up. After that I got skunked -- could hardly get a card higher than a ten and folded/lost every hand, getting blinded down in the process.

      I got put on a new table with around 20 BB left and finally got AQs, which ended with an ace, paired board and a K, resulting in a split pot. The next hand was the blind and I received 72. It folded around to SB with a 2x stack to mine, and he raised big enough to have odds to call off a push from me. I pushed, he showed A5, a 7 came on the flop and no A on turn or river, the villain's chat indicating that he was well pissed off that I wasn't playing ABC poker. His chat before that was hand commentary in typical pedantic pokerstrategy tone and style so I calculated that pushing and winning with 72 would either freeze him up or put him on tilt.

      Here was my thinking: 1. the bubble was fairly close but too far away to limp into and if my luck would run as it has, my blinds will get slowly picked off. I had a 2/1 chance if he didn't have a 7,2 or pair. If I won the hand showing the worst hand in hold-em, it would establish my table image as someone who would not be bluffed off his blinds. It worked that time -- I literally didn't get a raise to my blind at that table from then on with it folding down a couple of times to SB who max timed out, then folded and I could be fairly sure a raise would mean he had a monster. I ended up in the money (18th place, as I recall).

      Did I do the right thing?
  • 4 replies
    • metza
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by danutz123
      I had a 2/1 chance if he didn't have a 7,2 or pair.

      Did I do the right thing?
      This isn't the right way to think about it.

      First you have to construct a range for him to raise with in this spot.
      We shall call this range X (and it will be a percentage)

      Then you have to construct a calling range for which he will call your shove.
      Lets call this range Y.

      Y is inherently less than or equal to X, so we work out what percentage of the time he is calling/folding to a shove by the ratio between X and Y eg raising 75% of hands, calling with 50% of hands means that he will call you 2/3 of the time.

      Work out the equity of 72o vs his range using a program like Equilab or an online equity calculator to find out the % chance of winning or losing vs his calling range.

      Then we need your stack size, and his raise size for this formula:

      (chance that he will fold eg 0.33) x amount you win when he raises then folds +(chance he calls and you win eg 0.66x0.30)x total chip profit in this scenario - (chance he calls and you lose eg. 0.66x0.70) x the amount you lose in this scenario.

      If this answer is a positive number, then the move is correct (+EV), but in this case I highly doubt it is.

      Hope this helps.
    • rhinoneil
      Joined: 16.04.2008 Posts: 1,159
      I just don't follow your reasoning here.
      You already said he raised enough to have odds to call your shove so obviously you are expecting a call.
      With 20BB its just not necessary as you have plenty of time to increase your stack without taking this massive gamble.
      If you had maybe 4 or 5BB then ok blind v blind I guess you can make a case.
      In terms of establishing the image of someone who wont be bluffed off their blinds, I think the only image you create here is of someone who is prepared to shove with any 2 and therefore you are likely to find that any shove is getting called.
      It would be interesting to know how much SB actually raised here in order to have odds to call a 20BB shove also?
      There is no reason why with 20BB you should be thinking of limping into the money. Just getting into the money in mtts over time is not profitable. You should be exploiting other players desire to get itm to build a larger stack to make the final table and aim at a top 3 spot where most of the money actually is.
    • Asaban
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,222
      Thanks metza and rhinoneil,

      you delivered a perfect answer here =)

      Since I don't want to repeat the same things over and over again I can just second your descriptions.

      One thing I'd like to add:
      In freerolls you shouldn't play any hand in order to get some kind of image. At the same time you shouldn't care about balancing or anything like that. In most cases your opponents won't care anyways or won't even realize what you just did. It's a freeroll and therefore your opponent tend to be not the strongest opponents.

      Playing ABC style should be most efficient in freerolls.

      I would be very interested in the amount the SB raised btw. In most cases it won't be enough to talk about "sufficient odds" to call a 20BB push, although it seems possible in such freerolls that he raises a very substantial amount.

      If you have any further question feel free to ask!

    • GlitlrPS
      Joined: 13.02.2013 Posts: 70
      +1 to asaban