5 card draw fl, spots that seems to be tough.

    • sandraardnas
      sandraardnas
      Silver
      Joined: 11.01.2012 Posts: 2,021
      Hi,
      I'm talking about limits about 1$/2$, which I'm at, but I dont mind if anyone shares his or her opinion. Lets say some unk open raised and 3bet him with two pairs or little trips, what do you do when he 4bets? I dont consider positions because we dont know villain anyway.
      We have pot odds about 11% (it depends if we are in blind or not), and we have about 8% to improve.
      So asuming he doesnt have anything weaker than us, we have to cap pot postdraw always when we hit full or quad.
      I think this wont happen always, so villain have to hold worse hand some percentage of time.
      Do you think he will have enough worse hands to call profitably in this spot with any two pairs and always fold to his aggression? And maybe you know exactly how many % of worse hands he suppose to have here?
  • 7 replies
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,212
      I'm only playing $0.25/$0.50 -- and I'm still finding my way in this game

      Assuming neither of you are in the blinds, there is 5.50 in the pot.
      so your pot odds are 5.50 : 1

      Two-pair and trips both had better be good here, because neither have the odds to improve.

      So it depends on how often your hand is good, and whether you want to bluff or not.

      I think position IS important, since if he is CO and you're BTN, you have a better chance of being ahead than if he is UTG and you're BTN

      How much is the information worth?

      There are a couple of real 5CD experts around but I haven't seen them in a bit. Hopefully they'll add their thoughts.

      --VS
    • sandraardnas
      sandraardnas
      Silver
      Joined: 11.01.2012 Posts: 2,021
      Okay thanks. So, maybe you've been through some other spot few times and you didnt know what is most optimal play there?
      We could work it out.

      In meantime, I had this spot few times and still dont know what is best: I'm SB and open raised two pairs or trips like 444, BB called. I discarded 1, BB discarded 3, and he raised my cbet. Now I have to be good 1 out of 6 times.
      With low 2 pairs I think its a bet/fold, because I think most players just calls their two pairs to cbet, esspecially when I discarded 1 card. I also think that unknown also wont change his 88 into a bluff and with such hand he'll just call or fold.
      But there is difficulty when I'm holding 444 here. He of course have all better tripses here, but he could show up sometimes with AAKK, AATT, and of course random bluff.

      Lets assume he is raising with all tripses+, and only with it. Then we are losing to 10 tripses (the more blockers we have the better) and we are winning with 2 tripses, so we have odds call to a raise.
      So to bet/call here with 444 we only have to assume that BB calls predraw with every pairs and raises all tripses when he hit. I think this might be true for unknown at lower limits.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,212
      So much depends on who is in BB in this situation.

      In SB at $0.25/$0.50 so many people OR w/ FDs (and even OESDs) then CBet.
      If your BB thinks that you are one of these, then he could be raising you to force you to fold your v small two-pair hands, and even low trips. Raising gives you correct odds to call w/ your FD

      With even 444 I would bet/call here -- maybe because I'm a fish -- but I think that you should win more than 1 in 12 in that situation.

      You don't say whether you draw 1 or 2 with your 444 - it might make a difference, because if you draw 2, he may also read you as pair + kicker, and be willing to raise AAxxx unimproved.

      If he does have a pair, and does hit, he hits 123552 combos of two-pair hands, and 8448 combos of trips that we beat, and 42240 combos if trips that beat us -- ignoring all blockers. Fulls and Quads make another 4368 combinations that beat us. B/C seems like a reasonable line here.
    • elderwon
      elderwon
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 1,729
      Hey Sandra and Vorpal,

      Interesting question, it's aspot that sometimes comes around. I play 0.1/0.2 for now, soon going up to 0.25/0.50.

      Even on the lowest limits these situations happen regularly. I have to say that even on these limits I catch people raising post with higher 2pairs.
      Given the fact that the lower limits are more aggro, I don't think that we can/have to assume that villain only raises with trips or better.

      Most important thing in making these calls is the dynamic you have and reads on the villain. Even after a fair amount of hands you should be able to discover some trends in his betting patterns.
      If you know absolutely nothing I would opt for a more conservative approach: in the given situation check-calling with (higher) 2 pairs and defo calling his raise with a set. I agree with Vorpal that a set gives you good odds most of the time and if you lose the hand, you get info on him that can be put to a good use later on. :D
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,212
      Originally posted by elderwon
      Interesting question, it's aspot that sometimes comes around. I play 0.1/0.2 for now, soon going up to 0.25/0.50.

      Even on the lowest limits these situations happen regularly. I have to say that even on these limits I catch people raising post with higher 2pairs.
      Given the fact that the lower limits are more aggro, I don't think that we can/have to assume that villain only raises with trips or better.

      Most important thing in making these calls is the dynamic you have and reads on the villain.
      I have started 3Betting UTG & MP raises w/ Aces up and Kings up, whereas before only CO or BTN raises before.

      Upside -- most raises in these positions are two-pair hands, and there are only 111000 combinations in the deck that beat KK22x to begin with, so you're often enough ahead (I think).

      Downside -- if you ARE behind, you will improve less than 10% of the time.

      When I moved up to $0.25/$0.50 the first thing I noticed is the increased aggression -- I have since played some lower limits, and they seem more passive to me. Perhaps it is the time of day I play.

      Your comment on WHO you are playing against is spot-on.
      One thing I have a tough time with are people who limp everything -- you have no idea when they have a good hand. OTOH, it rarely matters, since you can get enough money from them in between the good hands.
    • elderwon
      elderwon
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 1,729
      Don't know if you got my first point Vorpal, I was only talking about postdraw raises.
      Predraw I almost always raise all 2pairs. There are times when I limp the lower 2pairs when there are a lot of players in the hand already and.or when there are nitty opponents in the hand. Again table dynamic is a big factor.

      I did make a mistake in my first post. I meant to say that higher limits are more aggro. Must be the onset of dementia :D
      I agree with you and I do expect more agression when I move up, it's a nice challenge. :)
      Lower limits are indeed very passive.

      People who limp everything are a gold mine. The only adaption I make (or maybe two) is that I'm very cautious when those limpers become aggro post. Then you're usually beat. It becomes more tricky when you're dealing with limpers that are always aggro post. When you're using Pokerhands, "AFq after draw" is a good indication. Then you have to be able to make hero-calls and crying folds.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,212
      Originally posted by elderwon
      Don't know if you got my first point Vorpal, I was only talking about postdraw raises.
      Predraw I almost always raise all 2pairs. There are times when I limp the lower 2pairs when there are a lot of players in the hand already and.or when there are nitty opponents in the hand. Again table dynamic is a big factor.

      I did make a mistake in my first post. I meant to say that higher limits are more aggro. Must be the onset of dementia :D
      Yes, I did miss that.
      If it's OK w/ you, I will also used the early-onset dementia excuse.

      Depending on who is raising before me, and what position they are raising from I am folding v low 2pr hands pre (5s up and lower).

      Post draw, whether I fold, call or raise depends on:
      Did I have this pre and it is unimproved?
      Did I draw 3 and hit 2 pair?
      Action before me.
      If checked to me, has anyone check/raised before?
      Strength of hand: I will bet/call w/ Qs up + usually, check/call w/ less
      Players after me: If people are going to call my CBets w/ AA unimproved, I'll bet any two pair

      I've been know to cap AD w/ Aces up against some people, but this is v rare

      Thanks for the tip about the "Afq after draw" stat -- I have Afq on my HUD, but I don't know which one.

      Since going to $0.25/$0.50 I've added the check/raise stat -- I never needed it before.

      The one stat I REALLY wish they had was "Lead AD in unraised pot".
      There is a CBet, and a Donk stat, but neither of them increments if the pot is unraised pre.

      Cheers,
      --VS