[NL20-NL50] JTs flopped 2 p

    • zumpar
      zumpar
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      vilain is unknown,

      there still should be plenty of value from AJ/QJ/KJ right?


      iPoker - $0.20 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BB: $8.78
      Hero (UTG): $20.00
      MP: $27.62
      CO: $24.47
      BTN: $6.30
      SB: $19.90

      SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.20

      Pre Flop: (pot: $0.30) Hero has T:spade: J:spade:

      Hero raises to $0.60, MP calls $0.60, fold, fold, fold, fold

      Flop: ($1.50, 2 players) 7:spade: T:club: J:heart:
      Hero bets $1.00, MP calls $1.00

      Turn: ($3.50, 2 players) 7:club:
      Hero bets $2.62, MP calls $2.62

      River: ($8.74, 2 players) 2:diamond:
      Hero bets $5.80, MP calls $5.80

      Hero mucks T:spade: J:spade: (Two Pair, Jacks and Tens) (Pre 19%, Flop 71%, Turn 9%)
      MP shows K:heart: K:spade: (Two Pair, Kings and Sevens) (Pre 81%, Flop 29%, Turn 91%)
      MP wins $19.33
  • 5 replies
    • zumpar
      zumpar
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      ..
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Hey,

      You can get value from QJ, KJ, AJ imo. Board pairing 7 on the turn is quite unfortunate. If you think you check/fold this turn often, you can check/call this hand from there because you lose vs overparis anyway and so your only concern is the other part of villain's range made of bluffs and Jx value hands which still bet quite a high frequency but having better info about it is better than just guessing.
    • zumpar
      zumpar
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      i agree, although just how often is vilain gonna have a better hand ott?

      there is 1 combo of 77 (if he call vs UTG raise pre), 1 combo of 11, 1 combo of TT

      = 3 combos..


      and u said "because u ose to an overpair"

      and how often is he realy gonna show up with an overpair here really? im completely gonna discout QQ, cause noone ever flats that pre MP vs UTG, KK is also unlikely, but ok, lets give him 1 combo, and AA is likely if he is the type to not 3b it pre, so lets say absolute maximum of 2/6 combos

      = 3+2+1 = 6 combos that beat me

      vs 4 combos of AJs, KJs, QJs = 12 combos
      + lets say 2/3 of AJo combos, 1/2 of KJo combos and 1/3 of QJo combos + 1/2 of KQ combos (considering most of them are blocked ofc)

      = total of 6 better combos and about 11 combos of Jx (+ say 10/16 combos of KQ)

      isnt that an absolutey clear vbet...
      ???
    • Saren113
      Saren113
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2009 Posts: 2,973
      QQ is quite of a standard flat vs a UTG open tbh, as if you 3b you isolate yourself against a very tight range that you are totaly crushed by.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by Saren113
      QQ is quite of a standard flat vs a UTG open tbh, as if you 3b you isolate yourself against a very tight range that you are totaly crushed by.
      This regarding 3betting. If you pay attention you find some people don't have a 3betting range in MP vs UTG vs regulars.

      Next, just because he can have worse hands doesn't mean you can value bet. If you value bet you need to get called or raised by worse not just make him fold air.


      I would include 25% of his QQ+ in his range actually plus at least 2 combos of 89s which you never took into account. This means he has 4.5 + 2 = 6.5 combos that beat you that are made hands plus he has the slowplays which makes for a total of 9.5 combos that beat you. That means you need to get called by 10 worse combos.

      As you can see, I believe that board pairing is bad since it takes 2 combos that beat you (2x77) but now he beats you with 4.5 of his combos so your hand actually becomes worse. I think the vbet is there but it's a lot thinner than you make it to be.