Equity needed to value bet turn vs 2 players

    • Lunitis
      Lunitis
      Gold
      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 20,132
      Hi.
      Excluding other factors (like $ made if check and villains bet for bluff or money lost due to villain raising worst hands and we folding) i know that we need at least 51% equity for a value bet to be profitable against the vilain calling/raising range.
      But what if im 3 way?
      I need 51% equity vs villains range too? Or i need just 34%? Or something in the between that we cant calculate exactly? I guess the last one...(?!)
      If just one call i need 51%, if both call i need 34%. But as we cant know (can we?) if one or both will call we cant estimate the exact equity we need...
      First time im thinking about this subject, i dont know if im saying nonsense things.. :tongue:

      This subject arise when i was evaluating if i should or not cbet this turn against two players with the given call/raise range:

      If im HU i should cbet:


      Board: J:spade: T:club: 4:diamond:  9:diamond:
             Equity  Vencer  Empate
      MP2    52.22%  52.22%   0.00% { AA }
      MP3    47.78%  47.78%   0.00% { 44, AQs-AJs, KJs+, QJs, JTs, 98s, AQo-AJo, KJo+, QJo }


      But 3 way my equity drops a lot and i guess we have to check/fold:


      Board: J:spade: T:club: 4:diamond:  9:diamond:
             Equity  Vencer  Empate
      MP2    29.20%  29.20%   0.00% { AA }
      MP3    35.40%  31.45%   3.95% { 44, AQs-AJs, KJs+, QJs, JTs, 98s, AQo-AJo, KJo+, QJo }
      CO     35.40%  31.45%   3.95% { 44, AQs-AJs, KJs+, QJs, JTs, 98s, AQo-AJo, KJo+, QJo }



      Lets give as QQ, things get a bit weird now...


      Board: J:spade: T:club: 4:diamond:  9:diamond:
             Equity  Vencer  Empate
      MP2    46.32%  43.38%   2.94% { QQ }
      MP3    26.84%  24.31%   2.53% { 44, AQs-AJs, KJs+, QJs, JTs, 98s, AQo-AJo, KJo+, QJo }
      CO     26.84%  24.31%   2.53% { 44, AQs-AJs, KJs+, QJs, JTs, 98s, AQo-AJo, KJo+, QJo }


      What you guys can tell me about this...
  • 2 replies
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,297
      Originally posted by Lunitis

      I need 51% equity vs villains range too? Or i need just 34%? Or something in the between that we cant calculate exactly? I guess the last one...(?!)
      Yeah, the last one.

      Ultimately you don't know how many opponents are going to call you. Rarely can you ever be sure that 2 or more opponents will call.

      So in practice, if you think that either of the opponents will not call with a range that has less than 50% equity vs you, you shouldn't really be value betting.

      Another factor to keep in mind is that when you value bet and get called by 2 opponents you usually have less equity anyway, even if you might have had 51% equity HU against each opponent. The only time that isn't true is when opponents have the same draw/hand and are blocking each others outs - something again that you can never know.
    • Lunitis
      Lunitis
      Gold
      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 20,132
      Thank you very much. Great answer.