BB defend vs BTN minr

    • BC1989RF
      BC1989RF
      Platinum
      Joined: 09.04.2010 Posts: 845
      Hey
      Spoke about BB defends vs a BTN minraise recently.
      So, we're getting 3.5:1 pre meaning anytime we think we can win the pot >22% of the time we call right?

      I have following assumptions for BTN:
      - open 45%
      - 4b 12ish% of the time. AK, JJ+ for the value part.
      - c3bet: 40ish%
      http://i.imgur.com/FUrHck4.png
      - folds the rest : so about 50%

      I know theres like a tremendous amount of postflop information i didnt even mention but im trying to figure out a range to defend
      - my 3bets
      - my call

      How do you model that?

      Like i first tried to run a sim with the following requirements:
      - midpair+
      - fd
      - gutshot+ using both cards
      and pick up all the hands to see if % > 22% but i end up with 3betting 30% of the time like any Ax, KT+, 22+
      and defending K4+, Q4+, J4+, etc
      Seems v v loose to me.

      How can we account for postflop oop play? maybe id need hands flopping stronger? more often like >30%?
      What and how do you determine those factors.
  • 78 replies
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      Hi,

      Ok so first of all figure out your 3bet/5bet range for value, I'm guessing something like TT+ AK+, then figure out your 3bet/fold range since he is not 4betting too much. So something like KQ+ AT+ 88-99 maybe basically same amount of combos as your value combos if you want to be balanced. If you start 3betting every Ax and KT then you will just get raped on Axx and Kxx boards and your 3betting frequency will be too high when he is opening only 45% of hands.

      After that figure out what hands you can call profitably, depending on his barreling frequencies and how good he is and stuff. Obv you want some Ax combos Kx combos Qx combos etc. it's just you can flat slightly more combos of Ax than Kx and so on cus of showdown and equity. You just do some work figuring out how wide you can flat. Basically think in terms of if the board comes x, will I get exploited, if the board comes y, will I get exploited or have enough combos to protect my range. What if the turn comes x or y will I have enough hands to x/c again etc.

      Hopefully that helped.

      serverm07
    • GlitlrPS
      GlitlrPS
      Basic
      Joined: 13.02.2013 Posts: 70
      Hey. I really like what you are attempting to do. The problem (and really, it's just a small flaw...not a "problem") is that ALL situations will be different. So, even if you solve one spot, it's not going to be useful again because you would have to find an exact replica.

      Hope this isn't discouraging, and hope maybe it helps you out.

      -Matt
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      Originally posted by GlitlrPS
      Hey. I really like what you are attempting to do. The problem (and really, it's just a small flaw...not a "problem") is that ALL situations will be different. So, even if you solve one spot, it's not going to be useful again because you would have to find an exact replica.

      Hope this isn't discouraging, and hope maybe it helps you out.

      -Matt
      Yes every spot will be different, but basically we just have to have a range that we can defend on Axx, Kxx, Qxx, so on. And since Ahigh has more showdown than K high and K high has more showdown than Q high and so on, we can defend more Ax than Kx, and more Kx than Qx and so on cus of SD and top pair being so important. There are guys that defend 65-70% of hands from bb vs min/raise, ps internet for example but he is also much more skilled than most people and will play his hands better oop than most, so defending something like 95ss might be slightly +EV for him, while it might be b/e or slightly -EV for me cus I'm a spewtard.
    • BC1989RF
      BC1989RF
      Platinum
      Joined: 09.04.2010 Posts: 845
      hey guys thanks for the answers

      ALL situations will be different. So, even if you solve one spot, it's not going to be useful again because you would have to find an exact replica.

      i know but i would just need a framework to start then ill deviate from the range i constructed in the 1st place.
      its like when we first started playing poker with these handcharts - no matter how tough the blinds are im prolly always opening k9o or sth from the BTN. well, im pretty sure if sauce/internet or another sicko would see what i fold vs a btn minr (A6o, 78o 74s etc) they would just go nuts as i would watching my little brother opening folding A7o otb.

      id say the starting point of my decision is simply the pot odds - 22% in our case. then according to villain's cbetting frequencies, how tough he is, maybe i could readjust the frequency of a hand flopping the previous requirements i mentionned.
      so if villain is v tough maybe id need XY hand to flop midpair+, oesd+ 27% and not 22% of the time, if villains so unblanced postflop maybe just flopping a backdoor fd 20% of the time will do.

      i just have no idea what "flopping" requirements and how to adjust these %/frequencies.
    • imfromsweden007
      imfromsweden007
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.10.2008 Posts: 726
      I would say this is a good framework for what to defend versus somebody who minraises more than 50% of buttons. Then adjust accordingly if they open more respectively less.



      edit: Normally 96o is a power house call (together with some weaker Kxo and suited hands), but tried to cut it down since not everyone might feel comfortable playing this range + might be -ev at lower stakes where rake plays a bigger roll in small pots. But yeah, maybe remove 54o instead if you want to play a tighter range.

      edit2: oh and with regards what to call and 3bet, just 3bet some of the weaker hands you don't feel comfortable calling with, both suited and offsuit hands + together with most stronger broadways. I won't spoonfeed you even more into saying exact how to construct your 3betting range but it's not super hard - just take a little bit of this and little bit of that and woop - you'll have a well balanced soup of a range :)
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      bro, not folding the 96!
    • BC1989RF
      BC1989RF
      Platinum
      Joined: 09.04.2010 Posts: 845
      ha thanks a lot mate.
      ill experiment from there - not folding the small otters either.
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      You guys such lags, I don't defend about 5-10% of those posted.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Originally posted by serverm07
      Hi,

      Ok so first of all figure out your 3bet/5bet range for value, I'm guessing something like TT+ AK+, then figure out your 3bet/fold range since he is not 4betting too much. So something like KQ+ AT+ 88-99 maybe basically same amount of combos as your value combos if you want to be balanced. If you start 3betting every Ax and KT then you will just get raped on Axx and Kxx boards and your 3betting frequency will be too high when he is opening only 45% of hands.

      After that figure out what hands you can call profitably, depending on his barreling frequencies and how good he is and stuff. Obv you want some Ax combos Kx combos Qx combos etc. it's just you can flat slightly more combos of Ax than Kx and so on cus of showdown and equity. You just do some work figuring out how wide you can flat. Basically think in terms of if the board comes x, will I get exploited, if the board comes y, will I get exploited or have enough combos to protect my range. What if the turn comes x or y will I have enough hands to x/c again etc.

      Hopefully that helped.

      serverm07
      3betting KQ/88/99 is generally going to be a leak imo, I think all 3 of them should clearly fall into our calling range pre, however I know that many people like to 3bet KQ for value.
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      I do 3bet KQs and off suit for value, generally call 88/99 unless vs fish. Care to explain why call>3bet KQ?
    • dozeer
      dozeer
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2011 Posts: 186
      good discussion and IFS007 poast made me realize I am still too nit when it comes to blind defense
    • imfromsweden007
      imfromsweden007
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.10.2008 Posts: 726
      Don't worry you're not the only one. Actually I feel like this is one of the, if not the biggest leak among even midstakes regs. People are just super uncomfortable playing hands that aren't broadways + pairs + SCs, regardless of stake it seems. Not until you go higher do you start seeing most people defending appropriately.
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782


      But you prefer KTo over 98s UT :P

      32s and similar are trash
    • dozeer
      dozeer
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2011 Posts: 186
      I am pretty excited to start experimenting with it, gonna be fun tryin to figure out how to defend 97o profitably.

      Also that means there is a big potential to improve my winrate in BB significantly! yay
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      agree k3 >> 32.

      I'd generally be a little bit tighter than IFS matrix, but yeah defending SUPER wide.
    • imfromsweden007
      imfromsweden007
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.10.2008 Posts: 726
      Yeah internet, you're probably right regarding K3o and similar, it was originally in but I guess I was a bit hasty in my downscaling. But yah, probably almost certainly better to call T2s and K3o than 32s I guess. I do think we should call or 3bet all of them though, including 42s, 52s etc.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Originally posted by imfromsweden007
      internet
      qft

    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,697
      are we seriously supposed to defend that wide? I know pot odds are good,

      but OP said 45% opening range. Always felt like there's no reason to defend wider than the BTN opening range. Don't see how you can play it profitably when his range is just that much stronger.
    • pharcyo
      pharcyo
      Black
      Joined: 18.02.2011 Posts: 51
      Games are not dead