a little bit of zFs

    • zOFsky
      zOFsky
      Black
      Joined: 22.01.2008 Posts: 20,377
      Hey, everyone. My name is Andriy and I am from Ukraine.
      I am playing zoom NL100, will try to take second shot on NL200 tomorrow.

      I'm playing poker for 5 years, and the problem is I'm stuck on NL100 like forever. As long as I remember I always could play profitably only this limit. There were times with NL200, even a little bit of NL400, but it was killed by black friday and FTP. My career started as 11/3 player with 10 bb on FR tables (yeah, there were times when you could play with 10 bb, heh), later I played with 40bb when no one even heard about MSS yet and finally I moved to BSS zoom SH.
      Right now I am playing 6 tables of SH zoom (2 limits, 4 NL100 and 2 NL50).

      My closest goal is simple: $10K income per month investing not more than 4 hours per day on playing. It's like $100/hour, yep. I really understand this is not so romantic like reaching NL100K and beating all the crap out of Isildur or Hansen but welcome to my pragmatic world.

      About problems in my game. I hate facing 3bets. Its driving me on tilt so often, why do people do it with unimaginable garbage, meh :(
      I am lazy. I like playing but I don't like studying. Moreover, when I am winning during the day I often don't wanna continue my sessions. It's a strange mix of lazyness and fear to lose what you already gained. No problems with motivation to play when you are losing though.

      Well, I hope bootcamp will help me improve my psychology and game to achieve my goal.
  • 23 replies
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Hey zOFsky,

      Thanks for joining the bootcamp <3 I have played vs lots of Ukrainian players before, and generally they play pretty good and aggressive, I was actually going to buy a Ukrainian jacket as whenever I am at an EPT all of the guys are wearing them!



      I'm playing poker for 5 years, and the problem is I'm stuck on NL100 like forever. As long as I remember I always could play profitably only this limit.

      This is a common problem for a lot of players, they get stuck in a limit and really struggle to move up through the limits.



      My closest goal is simple: $10K income per month investing not more than 4 hours per day on playing. It's like $100/hour, yep. I really understand this is not so romantic like reaching NL100K and beating all the crap out of Isildur or Hansen but welcome to my pragmatic world.

      $10k/month is an ambitious goal, is this pre or post rakeback? $100/hour for anybody is going to be a good salary, so if we can help you get to this goal then I think it will be a very good result.




      About problems in my game. I hate facing 3bets. Its driving me on tilt so often, why do people do it with unimaginable garbage, meh

      It seems like you potentially have a problem either with your mind-set or with your overall game plan. Lets try to initially JUST speak about 3bets, when you 3bet and when people 3bet you. I will set a couple of tasks and you do them and I give feedback and then we can continue the discussions from then.

      Could you start by telling me your general game plan right now, whats your overall stats? Maybe you have a positions screen shot, include f3b in each position.

      Thanks and good luck with this challenge.

    • zOFsky
      zOFsky
      Black
      Joined: 22.01.2008 Posts: 20,377
      Yay, pleno1, thanks for nice references about our players and for our beautiful flag :)

      Originally posted by pleno1
      $10k/month is an ambitious goal, is this pre or post rakeback? $100/hour for anybody is going to be a good salary, so if we can help you get to this goal then I think it will be a very good result.
      Including rakeback, yeah. It is ambitious but I'm pretty sure it is achievable.


      It seems like you potentially have a problem either with your mind-set or with your overall game plan. Lets try to initially JUST speak about 3bets, when you 3bet and when people 3bet you. I will set a couple of tasks and you do them and I give feedback and then we can continue the discussions from then.

      Could you start by telling me your general game plan right now, whats your overall stats? Maybe you have a positions screen shot, include f3b in each position.
      Here are my stats by position:



      Fold to 3bet is after 3Bet stat (Bet PF & Fold to 3bet). Let me know if smth important is missing, I will configure reports accordingly.
      About 3bet pots. I'm feeling quite comfortable when I am 3betting, especially in position. Sometimes I can overplay my hand with initiative, but I don't think its the number one problem to focus on.
      And when I'm facing 3bets here comes the trouble. I got strong feeling that I am calling too much, especially when facing resteal. It's really hard for me to decide what to do with 2nd pair after 2nd barrel, when to check and when to bet. So far it is the weakest part of my game, making that call preflop but having no idea what to do with my hand later.
    • BrokesoBroke
      BrokesoBroke
      Black
      Joined: 23.10.2007 Posts: 887
      Hi zOF. It's so nice to see that there are other people like me who can't move up. :) (Well it's not a good thing...) But at least I can have some people who can relate to myself...

      I had similar problems in 3b pots and one thing I tried was studying what winning players were doing in 3b pots.

      OFC, asking here is probably going to help you and all of us other ppl in this camp. Anyway, hope to work with you and some of the others as well in this camp! ;)
    • jachis
      jachis
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 745
      hi zOFsky,

      Playing against 3bets is definitely one of areas where I need to improve a lot.

      Im lately trying out just 4bet bluffing more against certain villains who fold a lot to 4bets and against supper aggro villains who like to barrel a lot just calling more with nutty AA, AK, which then I can easily call down.

      I guess at Nl100+ people will notice it fast and start 5bet blufing a lot more, but that should be easy noticable and you could re-adjust.

      I play only Nl50, only some people adjust but still very slowly.
    • roachru
      roachru
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.01.2007 Posts: 20,474
      I am lazy. I like playing but I don't like studying. Moreover, when I am winning during the day I often don't wanna continue my sessions. It's a strange mix of lazyness and fear to lose what you already gained. No problems with motivation to play when you are losing though.
      Hey bro,

      Born in the USSR :f_biggrin:

      Andrey, I suppose, that's in our blood ;)

      Freebie, where are you in 2013? :f_cry:
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Hello there Andriy!

      I see that you have some problems with getting yourself to study, and I want to help you out with them ;) .

      First of all, i like that you know exactly what you want from poker. It is definitely a step in the right direction, and hopefully we will be able to help you get there :) .

      However, does knowing that you want to someday make $100/h with poker motivate you to study and improve your game?

      If it doesn't, let's find some things that will motivate you. The best motivation possible is the one that comes from within. If you manage to find some other reasons why you play poker (for example enjoying the challenge, competition, solving tough problems, etc.), and then figure out what exactly you need to do to fulfil those reasons (you need to work on your game constantly to be better than others), it will be way easier for you to motivate yourself to actually do these things.

      What you can do is take a look at this post and write down your vision and mission in this blog. Can you do that? Then, we can work together on finding some goals for you which would help you establish solid studying habits :) .

      Looking forward to hearing from you soon,

      -Primož
    • zOFsky
      zOFsky
      Black
      Joined: 22.01.2008 Posts: 20,377
      Originally posted by Schnitzelfisch

      However, does knowing that you want to someday make $100/h with poker motivate you to study and improve your game?

      If it doesn't, let's find some things that will motivate you.
      Huh, it impress me how you already know the answer for the question you asked. Yep, knowing this fact doesn't motivate me enough.


      In other words, what are the answers to these questions:

      1. Why do you play poker?
      2. What do you wish to achieve in poker?
      3. What motivates you to play poker?
      1. I play poker strictly for money. There were times when I played poker as a game and felt excited with the process, but now its long gone. Poker is now my only source of income, my only job. It is not like afwul routine, I'm pretty satisfied with the poker as a way to earn money. The problem is I cannot start treating it like a job, can't find enough time to improve my game. I'm totally lazy.
      2. As I said before - 10K per month.
      3. Right now I have a goal to buy new apartment. This goal really helps me to put myself together, I noticed real progress since january. Now I'm trying to play at least 4 hours per day (and I rarely exceed 4 hour per day, which is not very industrious too). I hope I will done with that goal by this year's fall (in summer I guess).
      But I'm afraid about what will come after I achieve my goal. I'm not sure I want to be a poker player my whole life. In my country standard of living is not very high. If you got $1000 month salary you are quite succesfull and you are living much better than majority. But I already have more by doing basically nothing, clicking buttons. And because I can afford more than others I'm not working hard enough to achieve next level.
      Right now I'm thinking it would be nice to stay in poker for a few years longer, make a nice amount of money (like 500K) and start living carefree and joyfully.
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Hey again!

      How come that you've stopped being excited about poker as a game? What changed? What went wrong?

      I do understand that once you reach a certain level where you're earning enough money for yourself, it's hard to think of reasons why you should play more. And that's ok, if you only play a couple of hours a day and really enjoy your life for the rest of the day, why not?

      But it still makes me wonder - have you ever had any aspirations to become really, really good? It seems to me that you are limiting yourself to the other people - since you're earning more than they are already, you needn't try harder, and are therefore not fulfilling your full potential.

      What were the reasons which you played poker for when you were still excited about it? Would you like to change your mindset (become excited about it again), or are you satisfied with the way things are at the moment (purely monetary gains)?

      -Primož
    • waxiesdargle
      waxiesdargle
      Basic
      Joined: 01.03.2013 Posts: 7
      Hi, i can relate to certain parts of your OP.

      About problems in my game. I hate facing 3bets. Its driving me on tilt so often, why do people do it with unimaginable garbage, meh
      I am lazy.


      Instead of getting tilted whenever you see the monkey reg 3bet J5s and hit runner runner flush try and just see it as another part of that players game that you can exploit and can adjust to, for example flatting his 3bets wider including some QQ+ and increasing your 4bet bluffing range.

      This is just once example but as other said we can work on the area as a whole.

      I like playing but I don't like studying. Moreover,


      When it comes to studying as soon as i finish my session or very shortly after even if i find it a bit boring i will go over all +/- pots over 10bb and just makes notes on players and try and think what i could of done better. From there i might save a hand or two to put on skpe to review with others. It really doesnt take long and you will definitely notice improvement in your game over time from this.

      when I am winning during the day I often don't wanna continue my sessions. It's a strange mix of lazyness and fear to lose what you already gained. No problems with motivation to play when you are losing though.


      I can relate to this too, i find not checking my holdem manager until the end of the day helps a huge amount and lets me just put the hours in without getting a little bit frustated and losing concentration about how that last 60bb i lost took away from the X amount i was up for the day.

      I tend to just try and focus on making goals for how many hours i want to play that month, i find profit goals just add more pressure and frustration when i dont meet them or i am running bad while at least i can still get some satisfaction for when i hit my 100th hour for the month etc
    • ErikStenqvist
      ErikStenqvist
      Global
      Joined: 14.01.2013 Posts: 431
      I hate facing 3bets. Its driving me on tilt so often, why do people do it with unimaginable garbage, meh :(
      Hey!

      My name is Erik and I will be part of the coaching staff focusing on Tilt, A-Game, Mindset, and Lifecoaching. So if you have any questions you can just post them
      here and let me know in my Q&A thread if I take too long to reply. I'll be trolling around the forums but just so I don't miss anything. :)


      I think you answered your own question here. it's their job to put pressure on you so that you adjust negatively or make reactive negative emotional decisions at the tables. The question is why this happens? Do you feel personally attacked by them? Are you bring ego to the tables? Do you feel that you from a pokerstrategy perspective is confident in your poker skills to adjust to their attempt to exploit you?

      The mroe you break the situation down it will be much easier to understand what happens emotionally when you play. :)

      Looking forward to helping you dig into this issue!

      Cheers!
    • zOFsky
      zOFsky
      Black
      Joined: 22.01.2008 Posts: 20,377
      Thank you all for your feedback folks, I really appreciate it.
      Originally posted by Schnitzelfisch

      How come that you've stopped being excited about poker as a game? What changed? What went wrong?
      Nothing went wrong. It's time. I played millions of hands, I'm not sure it is possible to be excited with the game for so long. It's like videogame, no matter how cool it is if you played it for a 5 years you will be bored sooner or later.

      Originally posted by Schnitzelfisch
      But it still makes me wonder - have you ever had any aspirations to become really, really good? It seems to me that you are limiting yourself to the other people - since you're earning more than they are already, you needn't try harder, and are therefore not fulfilling your full potential.

      What were the reasons which you played poker for when you were still excited about it? Would you like to change your mindset (become excited about it again), or are you satisfied with the way things are at the moment (purely monetary gains)?
      You're totally right. I'm limiting myself, have no idea why. It's time to work harder, be better, be stronger.
      And I think I'm satisfied with the way things are at hte moment. At the beginning everything is bright and shiny, I have seriously doubts it is possible for me to be so excited with poker as I was 5 years ago. All I need now is discipline and get rid of tilt and ego.

      Originally posted by waxiesdargle
      I can relate to this too, i find not checking my holdem manager until the end of the day helps a huge amount and lets me just put the hours in without getting a little bit frustated and losing concentration about how that last 60bb i lost took away from the X amount i was up for the day.
      I tried not to check my current session results. Doesn't work, I'm addicted to this habbit. If I'm not checking I can't concentrate, my head is overwhelmed with the huge need to check how am I doing for the last few minutes lol. Instead I found a very good way to neglect awful effect when you losing. Usually I was checking my current session results on Poker Tracker. Now I've switched to looking at the current month results. It really helps, you still see green numbers usually instead of annoying red numbers (if you are winning this month) and it gives me long distance view, not the current session ugly perspective.

      Originally posted by ErikStenqvist

      I think you answered your own question here. it's their job to put pressure on you so that you adjust negatively or make reactive negative emotional decisions at the tables. The question is why this happens? Do you feel personally attacked by them? Are you bring ego to the tables? Do you feel that you from a pokerstrategy perspective is confident in your poker skills to adjust to their attempt to exploit you?
      Yeah, that is exactly what I feel, I take it personal. It's like "This dude is 3betting me again, oh, come on, I can't fold 3rd time in a row, I need to play him back no matter what". 100% ego, how do I leave it behind?
      And sometimes coolers or losing a few stacks in a row turning a tilt button "on" too. I'm trying to work on it, but it is not easy.
    • ErikStenqvist
      ErikStenqvist
      Global
      Joined: 14.01.2013 Posts: 431
      how do I leave it behind?
      Well realize that what is happening in this situation is that when other regs put pressure on you (some of the consciously, other by random) they are not exploiting you. Well not at least yet, however when your reaction is so strong you become predictable to play against. It doesn't take a reg a long time to see that you are over adjusting to them. So when you are sitting there thinking "i'm not going to let this xxxxxxxxxxx exploit me! I'm gonna fight back!" what you are actually doing is letting him do so, not by putting pressure on you but by you reacting so predictably. Make this your number one mindset issue to work on, Here are some first tips.

      Anticipation!: When you sit down look at the guys on your left are they goin to be 3 betting em a ton? If yes. Prepare for it mentally, put a not on the side of the computer with a mantra that you can read out loud of exactly why you don't want to give him the satisfaction of exploiting you because you can't handle the pressure.

      Strategy: Mark every single hand you got uncomfortable with in these spots. Then you break that reg down and see what the optimal strategy vs his strategy is. Is he folding to 4bets, can you call and take it away on later streets? Should i just be folding and let him spew into me.

      A lot of the uncomfortable feeling can come from having the right strategy to fall back on. Which isn't strange because combatting 3-bets vs a good reg is one of the hardest things in the game...

      Hope that helps a bit! :)

      Try it out and let me know how it goes...

      Cheers!
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Hey again,

      ok, I understand that after you do something for a while it's not so shiny anymore :) .

      However, perhaps some challenges might enable you to push yourself a bit more?

      It seems to me that you're in a bit of your comfort zone right now, but don't want to get out of it. Could it be that you are afraid to fail if you want to push yourself more? That the games wouldn't be so easier on the higher limits, meaning that you'd need to work on your game, and perhaps that makes you feel uncomfortable?

      You mentioned that it's time to work harder and become better :) . I agree! So, what are the exact things that you are going to do differently in the future months than in the past months?

      -Primož
    • zOFsky
      zOFsky
      Black
      Joined: 22.01.2008 Posts: 20,377
      Erik, thank you for your advices. Funny thing, just a few weeks before I've made some notes on my desktop (I can easily see them while playing) and one of them says "Be calm facing 3bets" )) So it's nice to know that I'm moving in the right direction.
      Originally posted by Schnitzelfisch

      However, perhaps some challenges might enable you to push yourself a bit more?

      It seems to me that you're in a bit of your comfort zone right now, but don't want to get out of it. Could it be that you are afraid to fail if you want to push yourself more? That the games wouldn't be so easier on the higher limits, meaning that you'd need to work on your game, and perhaps that makes you feel uncomfortable?

      You mentioned that it's time to work harder and become better :) . I agree! So, what are the exact things that you are going to do differently in the future months than in the past months?

      Wow, it is impressing, you got it so right! I really do have troubles getting out of my comfort zone. Every word you wrote is 100% true.
      Exact things that I've already started to do (I'm not gonna wait fot the future months :P )
      1)playing 4 hours per day, not less. I can allow myself not to play only if I'm feeling exhausted or tilting. But if I don't have valid reason not to play I'm trying to put myself together and just play that amount of time per day. Before I was playing just when I wanted to. Its rarely was 4 hours per day.
      2)second thing that already helped me - stats analysis and session review. Still not doing it enough but sometimes I'm working on my game. It's more than I got before but still this paragraph needs more diligence, I'm not working enough here.
      3)Boot camp. Yep, it is a huge step for me, I'm feeling that I've started working on myself at last. And it's very nice to see here people who care.
      Right now I got a very encouraging start at NL200. Let's fix this result, make it permanent and move higher.
    • ErikStenqvist
      ErikStenqvist
      Global
      Joined: 14.01.2013 Posts: 431
      Originally posted by zOFsky
      "Be calm facing 3bets"
      This is a great note to have. But how exactly are you going to be calm when facing 3bets? Do you have specific strategy? :)
    • zOFsky
      zOFsky
      Black
      Joined: 22.01.2008 Posts: 20,377
      Yep. During my analysis I saw some spots where it is just easier to fold every hands and I will lose less than I did while calling 3bets or 4bet/folding in inappropriate spots. It doesn't mean that now I'm folding to every 3bet but I'm trying to keep in mind that sometimes it's normal to face few 3bets in a row, it is just a variance. Of course I'm not superb in it, I can't avoid some tough 3bet spots, no one can. But I'm trying :)
    • ErikStenqvist
      ErikStenqvist
      Global
      Joined: 14.01.2013 Posts: 431
      Ok, try that out and see if it works. When in game there might be more to it than just logic. There might be some emotions there as well. Just keep an eye out and let me know if anything comes up... :)
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Hey again,

      I like that you have a plan. How is your studying going? Is it where you want it to be? It might help if you defined exactly how much you want to study in a week, and then try to stick to it ;) . Then, you can of course increase those amounts to push yourself more.

      -Primož
    • zOFsky
      zOFsky
      Black
      Joined: 22.01.2008 Posts: 20,377
      Meh, my study is nowhere right now :( If I am not losing at the tables I don't have aspiration for improving. Right now I am playing not so ugly, so I'm not studying (( It's laziness and procrastination, I will never get rid of them.
    • 1
    • 2