BSB play

    • LuckFactorX
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 10
      so I am playing a 1$ - 2$ NL Hold'em Cash game. I bought in for 175$ (do not ask, just a superstition) and did ok for 30 minutes now, playing small pots and trying to figure out the table. Mostly it was a loose agressive table with small contested pots and high bluffing going on. I stuck to my tight agressive game and did ok, building my stack to about 210$ and never going to a showdown. the player in my left just busted with a flush over a full house so this new guy comes in his place (let's call him Robert). he bought in for 145$ and waited for the BB to get to him. after 2 hands the big blind got to him so he had no idea of the way I played (an advantage). everyone folded to the SB (me) and I was dealt 7 :heart: 8 :club:

      preflop action:
      I called. I was getting 3 to 1 and a connector is good enough for a call. at a tight table I might even consider raising with this hand to avoid playing out of position. things were different here as this was an almost CRAZY table. if my opponent were the guy that just left, I would have folded the hand because he raised to 10$ everytime I called in the SB. this was different as Robert just arrived and had no clue what I was doing. Neither did I about his game so I hoped for a cheap flop.
      he checked behind me (very pleased with that)

      pot : 4$
      my stack : 218$
      his stack: 143$

      FLOP: 4 :spade: 5 :heart: 6 :club:
      JACKPOT... I have the nuts on a rainbow flop. best time to check? not for me. I like to build slowly a pot that I am a very big favourite to win. so what bet to make? I was trying to see if Robert has any intention in playing this hand at all so I made a smallish bet of 2$... hoping to the gods that I will be raised. he flat called.

      pot: 8$
      my stack: 216$
      his stack:141$

      TURN: K :club: BOARD: 4 :spade: 5 :heart: 6 :club: K :club:
      what now? after some consideration I opted to check (with the intention of check-raising of course). he bet 10$ and I check-raised him to 42$. after what appeared to be an andless time he took he called. I check raised him also because of the "cooler" possibility.. if a club hit the river he might freeze (so will I for that matter)

      pot: 92$
      my stack: 174$
      his stack: 99$

      RIVER: K :heart:
      now I've got 2 hard decisions to make:
      1. do I have the best hand?
      2. if so, what bet will make more money (beeing called)?

      let's see the hand throgh and answer to question nr. 1
      he did not raise me preflop so that excludes somehow a surprised holding like a high pair or AK , KQ down to K10.
      on the flop he flat called my minimum bet... that could be made with any type of hand, from bottom pair down to overcards, inside str draw or mabe open ended str draw to the idiot end.
      on the turn the K :club: arrived... a scare card for my "weak" holding... not to mention putting a flush draw out there. I check.. showing weakness and he bets 10$, overbetting the pot... strange move for a good hand. if he was drawing to a flush... a 4$ bet would have built the pot a little for a good call by my weak holding on the river if he hits it... also denying me the odds to call. so if he had a flush draw... it's an unusual play, not at all profitable and preety unlikely. so I figured he has no flush draw. that goes too for a set 44, 55 or 66. now I put him either on a weak King or 2 pair. I am about to find out.
      now I check - raise to 42$. he takes his endless time before he calls. now a flush draw seems possible (although unlikely). 2 pair goes out the window because he would have probably moved in with that holding in Blind vs. Blind situation so we remain with a weak King (not 2 pair) or a flush draw (unlikely but possible given his call).
      the river was the K :heart: . no flush draw hit so if he was on a flush draw I am likely to make no money if I bet for value... say 50$. if he has a king he may call my 50$ but fear of beeing outkicked and only call.
      so to answer to question 2: how much to bet?
      I am presented with 3 options here: going for the check - raise, betting for value 50$ or so.... and..... and.... GOING ALLIN.
      Check - raise: since I check-raised him on the turn, this is not an option for me. I am very likely to get him to bet but not call a check-raise (revealing the strenght of my hand)
      Value bet 50$: a king would call this for sure and a busted draw would fold. a bluff allin by him on the river is unlikely because there is too much money in the pot and I was getting the odds to call.
      ALLIN move: now this is a true moneymaker in this spot. I know I have the best hand, I know he has something (very possible he has a king)and allin by me might sell the idea of a busted flush or straigght draw. mabe both !!!! so I go allin and he instant calls showing K :spade: 8 :heart:

      great hand, good read, nice payout

      this is a real hand I played and I have the hand history to proove it
  • 6 replies
    • Faye6891
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      First thing, just out of curiosity, are you playing your own money? How are you bronze playing NL200?

      Second, don't buy-in for $175, stop with the superstition, buy-in for a full stack to maximize profits.

      Just calling the SB is so weak IMO. I'd fold this hand against an unknown, but if you want to play it, then raise it.

      I think it's fine.

      I'm betting turn again, I have no reason at all to think he's gonna bet into me. If he's drawing he will probably just take a free card. Even if he's hit the king he may check for pot control. Most of the time he bets here he will have two pair or set, and if that's the case, just bet/raise.

      As played, since he called your overbet on the turn, IMO, most of the time he won't have just one pair. Probably two pair or a scared set (Maybe K7 in this case). If he has a set now he has you, if he has K4, K5 or K6, he also has you, if he has 65, 64 or 54, it's very difficult for him to call an all-in and if he has K7 he'll probably call you.
      So, I see no reason to push, I'd just check/call since I believe most of the time I'll be beaten here, but I can't really check/fold my hand, and given the size of the pot bet/fold is not an option IMO.
      By checking at least I'll allow him to put more money in the pot if he's holding a 6, a 5 or a 4, and if he has K7 he'll certainly raise, maybe even push given the pot size.

      Just one more thing, don't post results, they don't really matter.

      P.S.: I mean no offense but, if you think it was such a great hand, a good read and a nice payout, why are you posting the hand? And I really don't think anyone cares if you have the HH for this or not. If all you wanna do is brag, you should post it in a blog, not in the forums where players come looking for advice from other players.
    • LuckFactorX
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 10
      1. I am sorry for posting the hand here, I am not familiar with the rules I guess so very very sorry.

      2. just because I am a bronze star does not mean that I cannot afford, given my bankroll, to play in 1-2$ NL Hold'em cash games so please stop asking questions like you want to slap a boy that fooled around a bit.

      3. preflop... my opinion in raising 78 offsuit just to win a blind is seriously weak. deep stack poker in my opinion is not risking 6$ to win 2$ (or 3) from your opponent. if it were the player that left his seat I would have folded it because he raised my SB like crazy everytime I called or raised. against an unknown... I fancy seeing a flop with my connector. I guess it depends on your style

      4. turn play was a seriously good play my part... although risking to give a free card. I wanted to show weakness after my smallish bet on the flop. I check - raised him to 42 dolars selling the idea that I was semibluffing (the board was draw-heavy).

      5. as for the river play... I think you overlook that this is a Blind vs Blind confrontation. scared set? what pair could he have since he did nor raise the flop.. heavilly drawing and an unraised pot? all of a sudden he overbets the turn? and does not raise me on the flop with 3 connected low cards in an unraised pot? a set is VERY unlikely.
      for 2 pair... on a draw heavy board like that on the turn... it was a raise or fold decision. I get the call on the flop with a hand such as K5 or K4 (K6 probably would have raised).. but on the turn... overbetting when you can make a bet of 3 quarters of the pot, denying the odds for a drawing hand to call? and failing to push when check-raised after serious weakness showed preflop, and on the flop? I seriously do not think so

      6. we may have different approaches to the game. but bottom line is that I put him on a king, a weak king and my read was dead on

      7. I expected a kinder response from you or any other since this is a forum and we are here to expose our questions and hand analises (I did not know I was not supposed to post a hand I thaught I played well here). I still think I made a great read of the situation and did not post my hand and my thaught process to "brag" as you so rudely say. I posted it to get a response, to get a different analyze of the situation and for me and others to LEARN from the opinions posted here (mine, yours and many others). and I think people realy learn when they observe a dialogue, not "pokerstrategy Doyle Brunson" coming to slap me on the face for making the minor error of posting in the wrong place. If you do not accept a dialogue and think you are here to slap me around... well... then you are the one bragging about here my friend, not me.

      I respect any opinion and learn from it, whether it is good or bad... mine may be good in some ways and bad in others. yours too. some man or woman may come here and expose his thaughts on this hand and reveal other errors I may have made, by his opinion. you know... not only your opinnion counts ;)

      P.S.: as I see the hand, the only "mistake" I made was the check - raise on the turn, but I was looking at a high risk (giving a free card) - high reward (getting my opponents whole stack) proposition and I took it.
    • Faye6891
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      1. If you're not familiar with the rules you should start by reading them. And you should post a hand here if you're trying to get some different opinions, but by the way you posted, it sounded more like you were bragging than trying to get some opinions on the hand. If that's not the case then I'm sorry.

      2. I don't want to slap anyone, I just asked (as I stated) out of curiosity. I also joined PokerStrategy already with a bankroll and people asked me the same question... but I did not answer them sarcastically.

      3. I really must disagree with your play here. I really don't like it, against a decent player in the Big Blind you'll never see that flop so cheap, that's why I'd fold... not raise (But I still think raising is a better option than just calling). Oh, and you're not really deep stacked.

      4. If you think that was a seriously good play on your part, I have no comments.

      5. A set is unlikely but possible.
      Just because he didn't raise the flop doesn't mean he didn't have a pair, after all he just sat down and you know nothing about him.
      Why overbet? Maybe because a lot of players just want their opponent to fold instead of making them draw unprofitably. Something I really don't understand but that's why there are so many bad players out there.

      6. You can't put a guy on one hand (or a very small range) if you never played against him, you just happened to guess it right IMO, even against a known opponent, you can hardly ever put him on one hand.

      7. I'm not bragging about anything, I gave my opinion on the hand, wich may be wrong. And I'm not trying to slap anyone around, but sincerely, I don't like people who doesn't even bother to read the "Hand Posting Guide", and make a post bragging about some hand they played (at least that's the way it looked). So, to sum it all up, I just don't like your attitude.

      "not only your opinion counts", that kinda made me laugh you know. All that sarcastic talk about being slapped and look who's trying to slap me now.
    • LuckFactorX
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 10
      juste because yiu did not play with a guy means you cannot put him on a hand on the river, when there is so much information of the beting and calling he did? am I seriously on a strategy site? and with 2 pair he wanted me to go away quickly when there was so much evidence that his hand was good enough to win a showdown? you can put anyone on a hand by the river card is dealt, or at least you can have a good idea if your 3-rd nuts are the best hand or not (probably you should read harrington on cash games)
      as for unlikely but possible... he could have had the nuts, quad kings for that matter. why not? poker is a game of clues, not exact information my friend.
      and deep stack poker ,eans you have lots of big blinds at the table ... not that you have 1 milion dollars in a 10 cent game by the way.
      if you are curious about me playing my own money mabe you should write me a letter and ask me personally, not start beeing rude and ask me here.
      I was not sarcastic at all untill you came and slapped me around (wich you did by the way)

      I quote from harrington on cash games :"a overbet measn quite often if not always this: I have TOP PAIR, please go away quickly"

      I rest my case
    • LuckFactorX
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 10
      one more thing... I dod not put him on ONE hand on the river... I put him on a range of hands. K-small means K2, K3(wich was the most likely hand if you ask me), K7, K8, K9. this is a RANGE of hands. even if I was off a bit... I was almost certain that I had him once the river card was dealt. it was UNLIKELY, although POSSIBLE that I did not have the best hand (I did not have the immortal nuts).
      notice that I put him on quite a large number of hands on the flop, when he called (that is because I never played with this fella). by the time I get to the river and the pot is that big, I must have a preety good clue where I stand in the hand.
      you also forget to mention the fact that he also knew nothing about me. that points even more to a straightforward play by his part.

      he played the hand ok although made some mistakes. I woulda raised before the flop with a king, folded to the check-raise (probably would have mabe a smaller bet on the turn) as I had only top pair and the pot was getting too large for my hand. I would have considered LEVERAGE for instance. after a check-raise that big was expecting a large river bet also.

      these are the things we should discuss man, not GOLD MEMBER vendeta.
    • Faye6891
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234

      I'm gonna try starting over again.

      The question about your bankroll was out of curiosity and maybe to give you some advice about bankroll management, but since you say you're playing within your bankroll limits, that's fine. A lot of people don't respect their bankroll limits, but it seems you're not one of them (And no, I wasn't trying to slap you around when I asked you about it).

      My opinion on the hand I already wrote, it may be right, it may be wrong. I just don't like playing the way it was played against a completely unknown.
      The only thing I absolutely don't like at all (and I'm gonna say it again) is just completing the SB because it shows a lot of weakness, as I said, against any decent player you're gonna get raised there by a wide hand range. So it's either raise or fold for me, if you think 87o is good enough for a steal, then go for it, if not, just fold it. That's a matter of personal style, but just calling is definetely bad.

      As for your statements (and that's why I slaped you around):

      Originally posted by LuckFactorX
      great hand, good read, nice payout

      this is a real hand I played and I have the hand history to proove it
      They were really unnecessary.

      You're already stating that you played the hand in a great (if not perfect) way (IMO, that's very rude, since in most posts people feel kinda lost about how they played in a given situation and post asking for other players' opinion, not to say how great they played the hand).

      And then you also say that you can prove you really played that hand, like in: "If anyone doubt I really made this great play here, than I have evidence that I really did." (And you tell me I'm the one bragging...).

      So, to sum it all up, I didn't slap you around because of how you played the hand, I just posted my opinion on the hand (that differs from yours and may be completely wrong, you may have played that hand perfectly after all).

      I did slap you because of those two last sentences in your first post, that IMO, were very rude.