Balancing Call/4bet range at button when facing a resteale

    • Qurion
      Qurion
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2009 Posts: 839
      Hi!
      I'd like to talk about balancing call/4bet range at button when facing resteale from blinds. To be more concrete here are stats of the villian(30k hands at NL50):
      Vpip 21/ Pfr 16/ FoldSBtoSteal 86/ FoldBBtoSteal 76/ 3bPfSBvsAtsBU 6.47
      3bPfBBvsAtsBU 10.21/ Fold4bPf 60/ CbFl(3bPot) 64(74)/ CbT(3bPot) 50(57)
      FoldtoFloatFl 66/ FoldtoFloatT 45/ Ch-R T(9).
      Lets assume that the villians 3bet-5bSh Range is AQs+,AKo,TT+, and couple of accident Axs(that's about 4%), and that he never calls 4bet.
      My open raise here is 45% (from BU), so how can I count what range I can call him with? And what is my bluff 4bet range there?
      As well I'm concerned that I fold way to many pots, when I call 3bPf in position. How to balance how many hands I need to bluff with or bluff catch, relatively to the times i hit nuts(or relatively strong hand with what I'm glad to put money in before showdaun)?
      Sorry If I ask for an obvious or improper staff, as I'm here to learn.
      Regards.

      P.S. Assuming that we are playing 100bb game.
  • 18 replies
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Hey,

      The stats are kinda hard to read, any chance of a screen shot? :) :)
    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,843
      at first from a theortetical stand of view:

      You woud have to post the sizeings, to answer your question how much you have to defend.
      But yeah, I ust assume now sizeings:
      let`s say it is BTNvsBB and you open to 2BB and he 3bets to 7BB.
      -> In order to show an autoprofit, he needs 70% FEQ (7/7+2+1).
      So you need to defend 30% of your openingrange by either calling or 4betting
      -> hence 0,3*45%= 13,5%

      So you only need to defend 13,5% cause you opens so tight (btw. would look to expand my BTN-range for the future).

      Ok,
      Now we wanna look what you wanna 4bet for value vs. him:

      He is not a 3b-monster, so i would say we go in BTNvsBB w TT, AKs/o+

      -> those are 3,47%.

      I think a fold to 5b-stat off round 50% is not to exploitable, so I would also like to have a bluff4b-range of 3,5%.

      Before we check out how our bluff4bet-range shall look, we wanna estimate what we wanna call vs. him.
      So now we would theorywise call bout 6,5% (our defendrange - our 4b-range)
      So we could call vs. the 3bet something like this:

      99-88,AQs-ATs,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,AQo-AJo,KQo -> those are a bit more than 6,5 - those are 7% (not a big deal).

      Now we can check out what we wanan bluff4bet with - you say we assume he never calls a 4bet, so we rely on hands with best blockervalue - here we need 3,5%.
      So my 4bBluff-range would be:
      ATo,KJo-KTo,QJo (3,6%)
      You could consider replace QJo by A9o, not sure what is a better bluff4b-hand.


      Ok, this all was ust the theoretical view.
      Vs. many ppl who 3b more and have leaks in rr pots (cbetting too much , but 2ndbarelling to less ; cbetting too less and C/Folding too much vs. stabs), you can defend then a bit more.
      Here you ust add the very next best hands to your defendrange...
    • Qurion
      Qurion
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2009 Posts: 839
      Thanks for answer IronPumper.

      Stats:
    • jachis
      jachis
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 745
      Seems like the stats spoiler is not working.
    • yegon
      yegon
      Silver
      Joined: 23.02.2012 Posts: 3,045
      my thoughts, please correct me if I am wrong:

      those stats look a bit strange, I would look deeper into positional stuff, especially how much he 3bets SB vs button and BB vs button, the BB vs steal number being much higher than SB could be caused by him 3betting very wide vs a SB steal. He might 3bet BB vs BTN much less (comparable to the 6% he has in the SB).

      against someone who stacks off TT+/AK/AQs and only 3bets 6-7% I would not look to 4bet bluff much as their 3b range is too valueheavy. I also think it is ok to be unbalanced in this spot and fold too much vs a 3bet unless we have a read on villains postflop tendencies that we can exploit. No need to call with a 7% capped range vs his 6,5% uncapped and valueheavy 3 betting range.

      Now if his BB vs BTN 3b number would really be about 10% we should definitely start worrying about being exploited and look to defend as much as math says, even more because if we are defending by calling we are letting a part of villains range see a flop and at least partially realize his pf equity which is non zero.


      A guestion:
      What do you do with guys that call 4bets OOP? How do you change your 4bet range?
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      Originally posted by jachis
      Seems like the stats spoiler is not working.
      fixed it ;) , i think
    • jakelamotta
      jakelamotta
      Basic
      Joined: 11.01.2013 Posts: 10
      Originally posted by IronPumper
      at first from a theortetical stand of view:

      You woud have to post the sizeings, to answer your question how much you have to defend.
      But yeah, I ust assume now sizeings:
      let`s say it is BTNvsBB and you open to 2BB and he 3bets to 7BB.
      -> In order to show an autoprofit, he needs 70% FEQ (7/7+2+1).
      So you need to defend 30% of your openingrange by either calling or 4betting
      -> hence 0,3*45%= 13,5%

      So you only need to defend 13,5% cause you opens so tight (btw. would look to expand my BTN-range for the future).
      This would be true if we never saw a flop but some of this defence will be calling which means he will have equity so he would still profit from ATC.

      To OP:

      Assuming villain never calls 4bets would probably have worked 2-3 years ago but these days with both smaller opening sizes and relatively smaller 4bet sizes calling 4bets is not only common but something you should probably do (got no proof for this though).

      I usually go with defending 35-40% of my opening range as a standard, deviating when needed. Calculating this is no exact science though but it wont be way of.

      As for how to defend, we both want to call and 4bet obv. The more he polarizes the more I lean towards calling more and vice versa.

      As for hands to choose for 4betting I would go with something that has good blockers and preferably hits other types of boards than your nuts. This is not as important I guess when 4betting as when 3betting since we wont see a flop with money behind as often. But as I said, these days people def call more 4bets than they used to. Its going to be difficult though to find hands that hit other types of flops that also has blockers so I still go with Arag type hands, preferably suited ones. The advantage of this is also that you have (relatively) alot of equity against the hands that will most likely be calling you. Middle pairs, strong but not super strong broadway hands. Only hands to sucks to get called by are AJ-type but I still think its a good idea.

      Finally a note on some theory that I have implemented only in one very specific case which I wont mention in a public forum but I am sure its a viable strategy against someone who is calling alot of 4bets. That is v4bet/folding. Should be done with much caution because its very easy to overdo but against a frequent caller its going to be a correct adjustment.

      These points are pretty vague but I have intentionally tried to only give guidelines for how you should think so you can apply it to more situations than just this one.
    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,843
      Originally posted by jakelamotta
      Originally posted by IronPumper
      at first from a theortetical stand of view:

      You woud have to post the sizeings, to answer your question how much you have to defend.
      But yeah, I ust assume now sizeings:
      let`s say it is BTNvsBB and you open to 2BB and he 3bets to 7BB.
      -> In order to show an autoprofit, he needs 70% FEQ (7/7+2+1).
      So you need to defend 30% of your openingrange by either calling or 4betting
      -> hence 0,3*45%= 13,5%

      So you only need to defend 13,5% cause you opens so tight (btw. would look to expand my BTN-range for the future).
      This would be true if we never saw a flop but some of this defence will be calling which means he will have equity so he would still profit from ATC.

      yeah, you are right - tis should be then also the reason why it is correct to defend a wider range than my "incorrect" math (technically it is correct, but the application is not all right here due to your mentioned reasons) would suggest, in spots like the mentioned one or also for instance in BB vs a BTN_Minraise-steal.
      But it seems that it is impossible to exactly proof mathwise how much more you have to defend in %, I guess?
      You can only approximate it then, right?



      edit:
      That is v4bet/folding - waht you mean by this?
      Just vague-wise cause you have already said that you do not talk bout this public which I totally respect of course - ust curious what this word "v4bet/folding" means? - have you maybe mistyped there anything - do not get the sense of the sentence in combination bout whatyou have been talking before ...
    • jakelamotta
      jakelamotta
      Basic
      Joined: 11.01.2013 Posts: 10
      Originally posted by IronPumper
      Originally posted by jakelamotta
      Originally posted by IronPumper
      at first from a theortetical stand of view:

      You woud have to post the sizeings, to answer your question how much you have to defend.
      But yeah, I ust assume now sizeings:
      let`s say it is BTNvsBB and you open to 2BB and he 3bets to 7BB.
      -> In order to show an autoprofit, he needs 70% FEQ (7/7+2+1).
      So you need to defend 30% of your openingrange by either calling or 4betting
      -> hence 0,3*45%= 13,5%

      So you only need to defend 13,5% cause you opens so tight (btw. would look to expand my BTN-range for the future).
      This would be true if we never saw a flop but some of this defence will be calling which means he will have equity so he would still profit from ATC.

      yeah, you are right - tis should be then also the reason why it is correct to defend a wider range than my "incorrect" math (technically it is correct, but the application is not all right here due to your mentioned reasons) would suggest, in spots like the mentioned one or also for instance in BB vs a BTN_Minraise-steal.
      But it seems that it is impossible to exactly proof mathwise how much more you have to defend in %, I guess?
      You can only approximate it then, right?
      Practically impossible to figure out with analytical methods, far from impossible to figure out with numerical methods though it would take alot of programming time and execution time if we want to get it correct or close to it. Thats why I prefer being a bit more vague on questions like this and just do some rough math to see approximately where you should be.
    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,843
      Originally posted by jakelamotta
      Originally posted by IronPumper
      Originally posted by jakelamotta
      Originally posted by IronPumper
      at first from a theortetical stand of view:

      You woud have to post the sizeings, to answer your question how much you have to defend.
      But yeah, I ust assume now sizeings:
      let`s say it is BTNvsBB and you open to 2BB and he 3bets to 7BB.
      -> In order to show an autoprofit, he needs 70% FEQ (7/7+2+1).
      So you need to defend 30% of your openingrange by either calling or 4betting
      -> hence 0,3*45%= 13,5%

      So you only need to defend 13,5% cause you opens so tight (btw. would look to expand my BTN-range for the future).
      This would be true if we never saw a flop but some of this defence will be calling which means he will have equity so he would still profit from ATC.

      yeah, you are right - tis should be then also the reason why it is correct to defend a wider range than my "incorrect" math (technically it is correct, but the application is not all right here due to your mentioned reasons) would suggest, in spots like the mentioned one or also for instance in BB vs a BTN_Minraise-steal.
      But it seems that it is impossible to exactly proof mathwise how much more you have to defend in %, I guess?
      You can only approximate it then, right?
      Practically impossible to figure out with analytical methods, far from impossible to figure out with numerical methods though it would take alot of programming time and execution time if we want to get it correct or close to it. Thats why I prefer being a bit more vague on questions like this and just do some rough math to see approximately where you should be.
      ah youre quick - now you have missed my "edit"^^
      anyways,
      yeah should be doable with tools and lot of time (you would need to know that villain will cal with and you would need to estimate your EV in every scenario which should be not rly doable in practice,I guess)...
    • bartjuh
      bartjuh
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2007 Posts: 55
      I think he means 4bet for value against his calling range but fold to a shove. Same as in value 3bet, fold vs 4bet from a player that calls 3bets wide.
    • jakelamotta
      jakelamotta
      Basic
      Joined: 11.01.2013 Posts: 10
      Originally posted by bartjuh
      I think he means 4bet for value against his calling range but fold to a shove. Same as in value 3bet, fold vs 4bet from a player that calls 3bets wide.
      I missed his edit and yes you are spot on with what I meant.
    • b1Tb
      b1Tb
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 2,502
      First of all, lets straighten the mathematics here.
      at first from a theortetical stand of view:

      You woud have to post the sizeings, to answer your question how much you have to defend.
      But yeah, I ust assume now sizeings:
      let`s say it is BTNvsBB and you open to 2BB and he 3bets to 7BB.
      -> In order to show an autoprofit, he needs 70% FEQ (7/7+2+1).
      So you need to defend 30% of your openingrange by either calling or 4betting
      -> hence 0,3*45%= 13,5%


      This is wrong. He already posted BB. So he raises 6$ more to win 3,5$. 6/6+3,5=63,15% to profit (comparing to losing 1BB).

      Second, since usually player 3bet resteal ranges are based on opponents stats and their own style you should consider your stats and overall 3bet/resteal range of your opponent. There is no perfect strategy here.
      For example, lets say we are stealing 45% from button and fold to 3bet 65%. Some players react to that by restealing 20-30%. If you have long distance played against such player you can see that in vs Hero stats. But some players dont react at all or just call more on BB.
      Based on villains reaction to your steal you can come up with a counter-strategy. If villain resteals 20-30% but goes all-in only with TT,AQ+ you can easely profit by 4beting light. Also often resteal range is unbalanced and I think it is profitable to call that resteal with wide range.
    • Qurion
      Qurion
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2009 Posts: 839
      Thanks for your answers guys.
    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,843
      Originally posted by b1Tb
      First of all, lets straighten the mathematics here.
      at first from a theortetical stand of view:

      You woud have to post the sizeings, to answer your question how much you have to defend.
      But yeah, I ust assume now sizeings:
      let`s say it is BTNvsBB and you open to 2BB and he 3bets to 7BB.
      -> In order to show an autoprofit, he needs 70% FEQ (7/7+2+1).
      So you need to defend 30% of your openingrange by either calling or 4betting
      -> hence 0,3*45%= 13,5%


      This is wrong. He already posted BB. So he raises 6$ more to win 3,5$. 6/6+3,5=63,15% to profit (comparing to losing 1BB).

      yeah, no clue how i could miss this -tired probably


      Second, since usually player 3bet resteal ranges are based on opponents stats and their own style you should consider your stats and overall 3bet/resteal range of your opponent. There is no perfect strategy here.
      For example, lets say we are stealing 45% from button and fold to 3bet 65%. Some players react to that by restealing 20-30%. If you have long distance played against such player you can see that in vs Hero stats. But some players dont react at all or just call more on BB.
      Based on villains reaction to your steal you can come up with a counter-strategy. If villain resteals 20-30% but goes all-in only with TT,AQ+ you can easely profit by 4beting light. Also often resteal range is unbalanced and I think it is profitable to call that resteal with wide range.
    • atton64
      atton64
      Platinum
      Joined: 31.01.2008 Posts: 1,502
      Already written.
    • Lackoogcb
      Lackoogcb
      Black
      Joined: 16.04.2008 Posts: 1,648
      Originally posted by jakelamotta

      I usually go with defending 35-40% of my opening range as a standard, deviating when needed. Calculating this is no exact science though but it wont be way of.

      As for how to defend, we both want to call and 4bet obv. The more he polarizes the more I lean towards calling more and vice versa.

      As for hands to choose for 4betting I would go with something that has good blockers and preferably hits other types of boards than your nuts. This is not as important I guess when 4betting as when 3betting since we wont see a flop with money behind as often. But as I said, these days people def call more 4bets than they used to. Its going to be difficult though to find hands that hit other types of flops that also has blockers so I still go with Arag type hands, preferably suited ones. The advantage of this is also that you have (relatively) alot of equity against the hands that will most likely be calling you. Middle pairs, strong but not super strong broadway hands. Only hands to sucks to get called by are AJ-type but I still think its a good idea.

      Finally a note on some theory that I have implemented only in one very specific case which I wont mention in a public forum but I am sure its a viable strategy against someone who is calling alot of 4bets. That is v4bet/folding. Should be done with much caution because its very easy to overdo but against a frequent caller its going to be a correct adjustment.

      These points are pretty vague but I have intentionally tried to only give guidelines for how you should think so you can apply it to more situations than just this one.
      How big should the villain's 3B% be to defend 35-40% of your opening range in your opinion? I mean if he 3bets 5% we can fold 85% and not being exploited, and this 10% is not sooo much in BUvsBB as well, I don't think playing back with a wider range than he 3bets is a good idea unless we have some strong reads, or he is very poor postflop in this kinda situations. RIO will kill us when we flat. But I don't know how to calculate this. I guess vs 10% if we open 50-60% OTB we can fold also 70-75% because he won't exploit us, but thats other question if he sees we fold that much he will 3bet more :) I guess vs12-15%+ 3bets should we go for a "GTO" strategy.

      What do you think about this?
    • jakelamotta
      jakelamotta
      Basic
      Joined: 11.01.2013 Posts: 10
      Originally posted by Lackoogcb
      Originally posted by jakelamotta

      I usually go with defending 35-40% of my opening range as a standard, deviating when needed. Calculating this is no exact science though but it wont be way of.

      As for how to defend, we both want to call and 4bet obv. The more he polarizes the more I lean towards calling more and vice versa.

      As for hands to choose for 4betting I would go with something that has good blockers and preferably hits other types of boards than your nuts. This is not as important I guess when 4betting as when 3betting since we wont see a flop with money behind as often. But as I said, these days people def call more 4bets than they used to. Its going to be difficult though to find hands that hit other types of flops that also has blockers so I still go with Arag type hands, preferably suited ones. The advantage of this is also that you have (relatively) alot of equity against the hands that will most likely be calling you. Middle pairs, strong but not super strong broadway hands. Only hands to sucks to get called by are AJ-type but I still think its a good idea.

      Finally a note on some theory that I have implemented only in one very specific case which I wont mention in a public forum but I am sure its a viable strategy against someone who is calling alot of 4bets. That is v4bet/folding. Should be done with much caution because its very easy to overdo but against a frequent caller its going to be a correct adjustment.

      These points are pretty vague but I have intentionally tried to only give guidelines for how you should think so you can apply it to more situations than just this one.
      How big should the villain's 3B% be to defend 35-40% of your opening range in your opinion? I mean if he 3bets 5% we can fold 85% and not being exploited, and this 10% is not sooo much in BUvsBB as well, I don't think playing back with a wider range than he 3bets is a good idea unless we have some strong reads, or he is very poor postflop in this kinda situations. RIO will kill us when we flat. But I don't know how to calculate this. I guess vs 10% if we open 50-60% OTB we can fold also 70-75% because he won't exploit us, but thats other question if he sees we fold that much he will 3bet more :) I guess vs12-15%+ 3bets should we go for a "GTO" strategy.

      What do you think about this?
      Yes we can and we should, at least something like that. Although I generally dont make huge deviations cause I rather deviate everytime a little bit than a few times alot (unless we play against fish ofc). People catch on if you do huge deviations but probably never will if you only fold like 75% of the time against specific players.

      Id say we should play near-optimal against other near-optimal players but 12-15% is probably close to that so yes I agree.