the last chance....

    • mister23
      mister23
      Gold
      Joined: 29.08.2006 Posts: 1,939
      hey,

      im mr.23 from germany grinding nl50 right now.most of my pokercareer i grinded nl100 sh on ongame and nl 100 fr rush on FT-after black friday i grinded a few k hu hyper sng and nl50 zoom fr and sh...

      i dont really have limit or money wise goals,but at one point in my "poker life" i really want to feel comfortable at the tables and want to know what im doing there-i want to understand the game.

      technical leaks:
      im not fighting for pots enough of the time,so my red line is going straight down pretty hard.i think thats a mixture of mental leaks(which will follow) and not understanding certain spots well enough.besides im pretty sure not valuebetting thin enough,cause im not able to understand different boardtextures in a short enough time and for example transfer it to"a big enough part of his range consists of xy,so i can profitabilly v-bet 3rd pair..."

      mental leaks:
      may sound funny( to me it does ;) ),but ihave a little bit of a bad feeling about bluffing.
      i never really learned for things,which did not bring me a lot of fun or captured my whole attention ,emotions,mind...
      often im not sticking to my plan-for ex.: i want to 3bet a specific range vs. a specific player -when i 3bet him 2times in a few hands i will almost always not 3bet him again the next few hands with the bluff part of my 3bet range--or i floatet a certain player and when a good opportunity comes up in the next few hands to make a move again vs him i probably wont do that,cause i fear him playing back at me.
      those things wont happen always,but probaly too often...

      thanks for reading and even more for answering/helping out.
  • 15 replies
    • imfromsweden007
      imfromsweden007
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.10.2008 Posts: 726
      Hey Mister23 and welcome to the bootcamp!

      I think the issues you are describing are quite common actually. I hear a lot of people thinking that "He's definitely gonna play back this time", or "He's definitely out to get me" and similar all the time. The thing to remember is that, after all, they don't see your cards. They are equally scared of you as you are of them :) They are not going to play back light, in fact when you face a regular who 3bet you 3 times in a row when you open BTN, you're not just randomly gonna take off with any two cards the third time are you? More likely you're thinking "Oh well there's no way he'd do it as a bluff 3 times in a row, and if I fight back right now it's just gonna look like I got frustrated. Better to just fold I guess." At least that's how most people tend to think. So you just need to get over this barrier that they're closely watching you, that they're gonna play back, that they're fearless etc. Even the regs you're playing are just human after all, and will have the same human emotions that you have.

      On the second point (well first point I guess since I began with the phsycology :p), I think it's probably closely related to the mindset problems. You can often infer if it's a good spot to bluff or take a small stab, but then what hinders a lot of people is just the fear of getting called. Not trying to fight for every pot is probably the biggest leak among smallstakes players I would say. Tomorow pleno's video comes out, and he's undoubtedly going to show some great spots both for small pick-offs, but also the bigger bluffs. So I would definitely reccomend watching that closely! Keep in mind though that I'm not an expert phsycology coach, I'm first and foremost a player myself, these are just my honest thoughts regarding the problems you described, but hopefully they should add some value at least :)

      Oscar
    • sirrybob
      sirrybob
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 15.01.2012 Posts: 44
      Hi Mister23 :-)
      Redline is my specialty.

      The best way to start fighting more for pots is to think more about your opponent's perception of you and less about what you actually have.

      Next time you play - try to think - "what does my opponent think I have"
      in every hand you play. This is called level 3 thinking and it is the first step towards a positive redline.
      Post some hands here in which you weren't sure about your play also! And good luck :-)
    • mister23
      mister23
      Gold
      Joined: 29.08.2006 Posts: 1,939
      hey guys,thanks for the feedback so far.

      ok-i"ll post some hands:

      1.villain:25/17/6.6 3bet-26 aggrfrqu.-fold to cbet 42 165hands

      i cbet for value vs lower pairs and fldr.,once i get raised i think that hes repping a pretty narrow valuerange(Qx and 66) some air and some fldraws-when i call im oop with 2outs and villain can barrel his whole range putting me in a guessing game....

      Prima, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      CO: $51.51 (103 bb)
      BTN: $101.58 (203.2 bb)
      Hero (SB): $50.94 (100.9 bb)
      BB: $50 (100 bb)
      UTG: $128.94 (257.9 bb)
      MP: $51.21 (102.4 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 8 8
      4 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, BB calls $0.75

      Flop: ($2.50) Q Q 6 (2 players)
      Hero bets $1.50, BB raises to $4.50, Hero folds

      Results:
      $5.50 pot ($0.27 rake)
      Final Board: Q Q 6
      Hero mucked 8 8 and lost (-$2.75 net)
      BB mucked and won $5.23 ($2.48 net)



      2. villain:21/15/5.2/37 -sb steal 38--riveraggrf.17 214 hands

      i think pre flop and turn are standard-that said when we fold the river it seems like moneyburning-

      Prima, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      BTN: $51.51 (103 bb)
      SB: $101.08 (202.2 bb)
      Hero (BB): $50.94 (100.9 bb)
      UTG: $51.73 (103.5 bb)
      MP: $128.19 (256.4 bb)
      CO: $52.29 (104.6 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with T A
      4 folds, SB raises to $1.50, Hero calls $1

      Flop: ($3) J A 4 (2 players)
      SB bets $2, Hero calls $2

      Turn: ($7) 7 (2 players)
      SB bets $4.75, Hero calls $4.75

      River: ($16.50) Q (2 players)
      SB bets $11, Hero folds

      Results:
      $16.50 pot ($0.82 rake)
      Final Board: J A 4 7 Q
      SB mucked and won $15.68 ($7.43 net)
      Hero mucked T A and lost (-$8.25 net)
    • ErikStenqvist
      ErikStenqvist
      Global
      Joined: 14.01.2013 Posts: 431
      1. i have a little bit of a bad feeling about bluffing.

      2.when i 3bet him 2times in a few hands i will almost always not 3bet him again the next few hands with the bluff part of my 3bet range--or i floatet a certain player and when a good opportunity comes up in the next few hands to make a move again vs him i probably wont do that,cause i fear him playing back at me.
      Hey mister23!

      My name is Erik and I will be part of the coaching staff focusing on Tilt, A-Game, Mindset, and Lifecoaching. So if you have any questions you can just post them
      here and let me know in my Q&A thread if i take too long to reply. I'll be trolling around the forums but just so i don't miss anything. :)


      1. is this because you feel silly, ashamed or even stupid when you get called?

      2. The solution to this is actually to learn the right adaptive strategy for the situation. How does you range change according to how much you've 3bet him? Look into how certain regs or players adapt to you when you 3 bet a wide range for example. And how can you exploit their reactin? Are the calling too wide and then fold in to two barrels or start 4 betting wider and folding to your 5 bets for example. use the aggression to force them to adapt in some way, if you can anticipate their reaction then you have a huge edge. So make it your number one priority to make this one of your strengths. Post about it in the forums here explain what you struggle with and talk to any coach you might have about it.

      How does that sound? :)
    • mister23
      mister23
      Gold
      Joined: 29.08.2006 Posts: 1,939
      hey erik,thanks for the reply...

      to1.: im not feeling silly or stupid but a little ashamed and impudent...(not when getting called,but when doing it)


      to2.:sounds good and reasonable,but doing this for me on my own is my biggest weakness-im working out since many years,so i know what discipline means and it was always very easy for me to accumulate knowledge in training technics,nutrition stuff .because i was at least at 1 point in my life extremely interested in that stuff(working out) and i think thats the main reason why though it required a lot of discipline to reach goals it was relatively easy for me or at least doable.and thats unfortunately not the case in poker(for me).....
    • ErikStenqvist
      ErikStenqvist
      Global
      Joined: 14.01.2013 Posts: 431

      1. im not feeling silly or stupid but a little ashamed and impudent...(not when getting called,but when doing it)

      2. and thats unfortunately not the case in poker(for me).....
      1. Am I assuming correctly that you feel bad for bluffing in the first place? Like you don't deserve to win that hand for some reason? Do you ever get similar feeling in other spots at the tables as well?

      2. Why do you think there is such a big difference between "regular life" and poker when it comes to?

      If we know that you in other areas are able to perform well and reach your goals etc well and not in poker. There is usually an emotion there standing in your way or holding you back. Does that feel like it could be the case?
    • sirrybob
      sirrybob
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 15.01.2012 Posts: 44
      Ok both of your hands are interesting for two reasons:
      1. The first hand I can see why you want to betfold 88 there, but you have to realize, if you're betfolding a hand as strong as 88, then you are probably betfolding over 75% of your cbetting range.
      This is very easy for an observant opponent to play against, so here as a default I would rather not fold 88 to a raise unless I had a read my opponent was passive.
      If you do fold, which is fine and lower variance, it's very important to take a note who this happened against and pay attention in the future that you're not getting abused in this spot. Your "fold cbet to raise" stat rates to be high and some people will notice this.

      2. A lot of draws missed, this is a very standard call on the river. This hand is very high up in your range, and if you're folding it - again you're in a position where villain can 3barrel any two cards and turn a profit. I would want some read that my opponent was passive or didn't bluff rivers before folding this hand.

      Let me know if these comments make sense. It seems as if you're playing vs people you assume don't bluff - if this is true than both folds are good, but if they are bluffing at a reasonable frequency then you are getting runover by folding such strong hands here.
    • mister23
      mister23
      Gold
      Joined: 29.08.2006 Posts: 1,939
      hi erik,

      yes,its a little bit like i dont deserve to win...

      i would not say there is such a big difference between poker and regular life-i would rather say,that my poker attitude is very good comparable to things that do not completely capture me-like most things in regular life ;)

      i can tell you that there are many things standing in my way(including emotions),and i think that i know them pretty well but effectively getting them out of my way seems extremely tough....


      hi bob,

      to 1.: i agree and would like to know how you would continue to play that hand (for ex.: would you fold to a drawcompleting or overcard on the turn?)

      to 2.: i also agree and gto wise this fold seems very bad,but do you really see enough bluffs for me to calldown? since villains range contains AK/AJ/AQ/A4/A7--AA/JJ/44/77--discountet KTs+QJs,i also assume,that he is never valuebetting worse here so doesnt he have to bluff a lot here to make calling profitable?
    • ErikStenqvist
      ErikStenqvist
      Global
      Joined: 14.01.2013 Posts: 431
      Originally posted by mister23
      hi erik,

      yes,its a little bit like i dont deserve to win...
      Hey! :)

      This might seem like a semi important issue but it is actually a major one!
      Could you please explain a bit more (if you feel cool with it) about your general approach to poker and life when it comes to this topic. I feel i have a ok idea but just want to hear it from the source first. Aka you. :)
    • mister23
      mister23
      Gold
      Joined: 29.08.2006 Posts: 1,939
      hey erik,
      sry,but wont be able to reply till tomorrow...k?
    • sirrybob
      sirrybob
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 15.01.2012 Posts: 44
      With 88: I'd call flop (as I would with Qx and flushdraws), but with 88 I would fold to further action on any turncard. 88 is going to be towards the bottom of your flop betcalling range, so it would make sense to fold it to further action on the turn.

      With AT:
      Count combos, and try to count the combos of potential bluffs he has that he gets to river with - basically any 2 clubs or hearts, 56, 68,89,9T,7x,4x are all hands that could bet twice on this board and decide to bluff the river.
      After you finish counting combos of value hands vs bluffs (let me know if you need help counting the combos), you will see what kind of bluffing frequency your opponent needs to have on the river to make AT a call. I'm pretty sure it's not as big as you think, but maybe you will end up with a different result than I expect and then folding is ok :-)
    • mister23
      mister23
      Gold
      Joined: 29.08.2006 Posts: 1,939
      hey,

      to bob:
      here are the hands he might bluff with on the river-busted draws and some discountet 7x hands(42 combos) :
      KhTh, KcTc, QhTh, QcTc, Kh9h, Kc9c, Qh9h, Qc9c, Th9h, Tc9c, Kh8h, Kc8c, Qh8h, Qc8c, Th8h, Tc8c, 9h8h, 9c8c, Kh7h, Kc7c, Qh7h, Qc7c, Th7h, Tc7c, 9h6h, 9c6c, 8h6h, 8c6c, 6h5h, 6c5c, 8d7c, 8h7c, 8c7d, 8c7h, 7d6c, 7h6c, 7c6d, 7c6h, 6h5c, 6s5c, 6c5h, 6c5s -

      here are his valuehands(80 combos):
      AdAh, AdAs, AhAs, QdQh, JdJh, JdJs, JhJs, 7d7s, 7d7c, 7s7c, 4d4s, 4d4c, 4s4c, AdKd, AhKh, AsKs, AdQd, AhQh, AsQs, AdJd, AhJh, AsJs, QdJd, QhJh, KdTd, KhTh, KsTs, Ad7d, Ah7h, As7s, Jd7d, Js7s, Ad4d, Ah4h, As4s, KTo, AdKh, AdKs, AdKc, AhKd, AhKs, AhKc, AsKd, AsKh, AsKc, AdQh, AdQs, AhQd, AhQs, AsQd, AsQh, AdJh, AdJs, AhJd, AhJs, AsJd, AsJh, Ad7h, Ad7s, Ah7d, Ah7s, As7d, As7h, Ad4h, Ad4s, Ah4d, Ah4s, As4d, As4h

      vs that overall range i have 42% equity-if my assumptions about his range are realistic i think thats enough for me to call,right?


      to erik,

      i could write a lot about this,but its tough to find the right words and to not give away my whole life in a semi-public forum ;) ...
      to make it very short: it has a lot to do with (my) reallife,self confidence,my view on society and my way of participating...another thing i forgot to mention is,that im not able to stay concentrated/focused as much as id like to...

      thanks in advance
    • sirrybob
      sirrybob
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 15.01.2012 Posts: 44
      hey.
      With villain betting 11 into 16, the calculation for how much equity you need to call is:
      11/(16+11*2)=28.5

      So now the question you need to ask yourself to know whether to call or not is - how often is this villain going to bluff with a busted draw on the river, vs how often he is going to bet the value range that you listed.

      I'd assume for starters that a lot of villains would check AK on this river, as it's a bit of a thin valuebet. Also, when counting combos, you should take into account that you hold the AdTd in your hand - villain cannot have AdKd for example (a hand you listed). But I think pokerstove took this into account when calculating equity because otherwise you wouldn't have reached 42% with the list you gave.

      Here I would take out of villain's range all AK combos (12), all 2pair combos with Ad (12), KdTd (1), and AdA (2), reducing his value combos from 80 to 53.
      In his bluff combos you incorrectly listed 3 KTs combos which are all nutted on the river, but I see no combos with Ad or Td, so reduce bluff combos to 39.

      So now with 39 vs 52 combos - what bluffing frequency do we need to call with 28.5% pot odds?

      We would need villain to be bluffing 28.5% of the times that he bets.
      28.5% of 91 (39+52) is 26, so you'd need villain to be bluffing 66% of the time he gets to the river with air in order to make AdTd a call. Whether or not he does that is up to you to figure out :-)
    • ErikStenqvist
      ErikStenqvist
      Global
      Joined: 14.01.2013 Posts: 431
      Originally posted by mister23

      i could write a lot about this,but its tough to find the right words and to not give away my whole life in a semi-public forum ;) ...
      to make it very short: it has a lot to do with (my) reallife,self confidence,my view on society and my way of participating...another thing i forgot to mention is,that im not able to stay concentrated/focused as much as id like to...

      thanks in advance
      Hey Mister23!

      Well that is just common sense with all the pokerplayer degens and misfits including myself in this forum :D

      But you can always PM if you would like to touch more on this subject.
      You have my word that what you says stays with me!

      Cheers!
    • gadget51
      gadget51
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      Hi mister23, Let's hope we find you well?

      This is just a little reminder for you to try to find time to update your thread, which may encourage others to share their thoughts as well of course. :)

      How are you progressing with Bootacamp, are the coachings helpful so far?


      March on!

      Mal.