Question about ICM Training Ranges

    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      I am only going off chipEV here because I don't know how to do ICM calculations. Also if there's errors in my calculation

      Hypothetical Scenario:

      UTG w 10k chips (500/1000, 10bb, shortest stack at table)
      2 :diamond: 2 :club:

      If the average calling range of the table is AT+,77+ (8.45%)
      47% equity when called
      P(fold) of any one opponent = 91.55% = (100-8.45)
      P(fold) of 8 opponents = 49% = (.9155^8)
      Avg winnings when called and win = 11312.5 @ 47% frequency
      Losses when called and lose = 10000 @ 53% frequency
      EV = .51(.47*11312-.53*10000)+.49*1500
      = 743.4864

      Vs Avg calling range
      22+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo (18.25%)
      P (fold) = 81.75%
      P(8folds) = 19.9%
      Equity vs range = 48.79%
      EV= .799(.4879*11312-0.5121*10000)+.199*1500
      = 616.6017152

      Obviously the ICM trainer uses a different calculation because it has given ICM value to chips to get $EV instead of ChipEV but the point of these example calculations is to show that push or fold is really dependent on opponents calling range

      But what I want to know is how can ICM do this without having any villain calling ranges input? Like when you do the quiz and it tells you "push with this range in this spot"

      Is this just the unexploitable pushing range? Or does it just have pre-made "standard" villain calling ranges that it uses as an average?

      because I don't think it can give you correct pushing range without knowing opponents calling range and can sometimes lead you to make incorrect decisions. Eg. you're at a super tight table and ICM trainer tells you push 35% but you have a hand slightly outside this range but the table is all so nitty that they only call with 5% so its actually a mistake to fold your hand in terms of $EV.

      Sorry if this is a nooby question but I am a cash player who sometimes plays SnG and I want to know how to develop my push or fold skills.
  • 2 replies
    • maythany
      maythany
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.10.2011 Posts: 1,189
      Hello,

      The push/fold chart (nash?) is unexploitable only if your opponent is calling according to the charts. This creates an equilibrium and there is absolutely no skill factor involved here. This is optimal when you are facing a better opponent and therefore you push according to the chart to create an even playing ground to say the least.

      I wouldn't personally follow the ICM trainer software's recommendation of what to push and fold because it entirely depends on our opponent's playing style. If the table is nitty like you stated then we can push a wider range like 50% instead of 35%. Then again we can take a more optimal move like raise/folding if our opponent's are weak and we have stats that show they fold their blinds a lot.

      If the table is loose then I would personally fold 22 especially on the bubble if our opponents are going to call off with ~60%. Anyways, if you really want to find +EV hands to call during the bubble then I suggest you check out ICMIZER. It allows you to put a specific pushing range for your villain and it shows you what hands are +EV against that range. I hope I answered some of your questions (I didn't really understand a few things you typed here).

      http://www.pokericmcalculator.com/icmizer/#default
    • wiarygodny
      wiarygodny
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.07.2009 Posts: 1,395
      Youve answered your own question :)

      Originally posted by metza
      Is this just the unexploitable pushing range? Or does it just have pre-made "standard" villain calling ranges that it uses as an average?
      ICM Trainer uses Nash ranges (as far as i know) so it simply 'assumes' that everybody is playing according to Nash. As you know such an assumption is never true (unless playing only good regs who know that youre pushing Nash) but that's when the fun starts :)

      gl at the tables!