Playing 3bet pots as a caller

    • mko101
      mko101
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.01.2009 Posts: 2,160
      So my thread is inspired by the fact that when I filtered my database to see how I'm doing (especially on the button) when I call a 3bet, I found rather disappointing results. Might be just a small sample but so far I'm losing more than if I just folded.

      Non-SD is also leaking badly. It's probably impossible to get a good redline when you call a 3bet but I think a slightly losing or breaking-even one with proper ranges and a proper amount of aggression post is achievable.

      How do you approach playing 3bets mostly in position? What's your cbet and turn raise %? What is your gameplan vs. a "std" restealing range without any extra-ordinary reads?

      Feel free to share your graphs :f_cool:
  • 19 replies
    • b1Tb
      b1Tb
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 2,502
      I'm rather bad in 3bets pots myself, especialy when I call preflop. So this tread will be interesting for me. At the moment I'm losing the same amount when I call 3bet as if I would have folded.
    • yegon
      yegon
      Silver
      Joined: 23.02.2012 Posts: 3,045
      same here although the sample is small and as seen in the graph I have not won a SD in a long time so this could just be variance


      (called a non allin 3bet IP in CO or BTN)

      my main problem seems to be that I play these postflop mostly in bluffcatching mode because most of the time it does not make sense to me to raise a flop for value with 100BB stacks so I do not bluffraise either

      people are cbetting absurdly in 3bet pots though, almost everyone bets 70+% so raising flops should be very profitable - should I do it more even if it does not seem to make sense for value?
    • jachis
      jachis
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 745
      I think this is definitely an area where I could improve a lot. Im suprised about my graph thou and Im actualy BE EV wise, so I guess Im doing something right cause Im losing less then if im folding, right?

    • Kingsurprise
      Kingsurprise
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 26.04.2008 Posts: 663
      Small sample on nl100
      thought my redline ist higher, I really raise much cbets,floating or if they check to me I start barreling I really worked on this spot hmm
      And I only call 3bets if I really have a plan postflop, a year earlier I called pre and thought lets look at the flop. Par example if villain 3bets 18% and cbets >80% I just dont fold on almost any flop now

      edit: wrong filter now new graph
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233


      this is mine NL100/200

      One thing to bare in mind is our opening rnage and also our 4B range. If we are more a 4B type of player, the calling 3B will not look as goos as if we call 3B with premiums for example.

      @ King surprise: Can you share some HHs where you make some moves post flops?
    • Kingsurprise
      Kingsurprise
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 26.04.2008 Posts: 663
      Hmm that a not realy crazy moves these guys all 3bet more >15% and cbetting/barrling way to much.
      Imo there is often more money in playing postflop than in 4betting. but everything depends on villain.
      Versus must of these villains its nearly autoprofit to raise their cbets.
      first you can do it only with air if you get catched, change to value hands. But thats all really exploitive and only good for really unbalanced regs. And it isnt a longterm solution, because they will adapt(most of them very late^^) and so have you. If you dont know what to do simply fold pre is the cheapest =)
      Vs more balanced guys I play complete different. Then I call much tighter and look that I can rep something and so on.

      Some hands really look like spew, but it was all based on good reasons.
      If the raise get called I mostly give up, I only continue when I pck up good eq.

      BB: $135.04 (135 bb)
      UTG: $108.50 (108.5 bb)
      MP: $40.30 (40.3 bb)
      CO: $77.76 (77.8 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $127.38 (127.4 bb)
      SB: $100 (100 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q:club: J:diamond:
      3 folds, Hero raises to $2, SB folds, BB raises to $9, Hero calls $7

      Flop: ($18.50) 4:diamond: 8:heart: 3:heart: (2 players)
      BB bets $10, Hero raises to $23, BB folds


      Hero (CO): $210.26 (210.3 bb)
      BTN: $216.06 (216.1 bb)
      SB: $99 (99 bb)
      BB: $49 (49 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with 6:heart: 5:heart:
      Hero raises to $2.62, BTN folds, SB raises to $6.77, BB folds, Hero calls $4.15

      Flop: ($14.54) J:club: 3:club: 2:diamond: (2 players)
      SB bets $10.90, Hero raises to $22.80, SB folds


      SB: $100.50 (100.5 bb)
      BB: $99.27 (99.3 bb)
      MP: $23.16 (23.2 bb)
      CO: $316.89 (316.9 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $220.94 (220.9 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with J:diamond: A:heart:
      2 folds, Hero raises to $2, SB folds, BB raises to $6.50, Hero calls $4.50

      Flop: ($13.50) T:spade: K:club: 9:diamond: (2 players)
      BB bets $10.12, Hero raises to $23.24, BB folds


      Hero (CO): $124.22 (124.2 bb)
      BTN: $126.93 (126.9 bb)
      SB: $112.64 (112.6 bb)
      BB: $193.35 (193.4 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with T:heart: 8:heart:
      Hero raises to $3, BTN folds, SB raises to $10, BB folds, Hero calls $7

      Flop: ($21) J:spade: A:club: 6:heart: (2 players)
      SB bets $10.50, Hero calls $10.50

      Turn: ($42) 4:club: (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $21, SB calls $21

      River: ($84) Q:heart: (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $82.72 and is all-in, SB folds

      UTG: $117.20 (117.2 bb)
      MP: $115.14 (115.1 bb)
      CO: $67.48 (67.5 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $258.17 (258.2 bb)
      SB: $100 (100 bb)
      BB: $100 (100 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with A:club: Q:club:
      3 folds, Hero raises to $2, SB raises to $8, BB folds, Hero calls $6

      Flop: ($17) 5:heart: J:heart: 9:diamond: (2 players)
      SB bets $12, Hero raises to $26, SB folds
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by jachis
      I think this is definitely an area where I could improve a lot. Im suprised about my graph thou and Im actualy BE EV wise, so I guess Im doing something right cause Im losing less then if im folding, right?

      Hey bro, how did you filter it out on pt4?
    • tadcka
      tadcka
      Black
      Joined: 29.07.2011 Posts: 511
      Intresting spot for me too and graph is pretty funny :f_biggrin:


    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by tadcka
      Intresting spot for me too and graph is pretty funny :f_biggrin:


      I literally laughed out loud :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin:
    • jachis
      jachis
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2008 Posts: 745
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS

      Hey bro, how did you filter it out on pt4?
      I dont remeber exactly, but I made a filter where I have made a 2bet and then called 3bet.
      It actually took a little while, cause Im fairly new to PT4 and not very familiar with the filters.
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      people are cbetting absurdly in 3bet pots though, almost everyone bets 70+% so raising flops should be very profitable - should I do it more even if it does not seem to make sense for value?


      Not sure about this. I raise maybe 1/100 hands after calling preflop 3bet, especially IP. I looked at my results and I'm doing surprisingly good - running 200bb/100 but over small samplesize, only 500 hands. I'm experimenting with donking OOP in 3bet pots and this works pretty good so far.

      In general I think people play very poorly against 3bets. They try to 4bet more against loose 3bets, but that's not the best way to go IMO, especially IP. When they call, they fold way toooo much to barrels. I made some badges with notecaddy and 9/10 regs fold over 50% to flop cbet in 3bet pot, where it should be only ~30%. Same for the turn, not sure about river because it requires much bigger samplesize. Also they check back too much after calling some barrels. Turning almost anything into a bluff is more +EV than checking back in most cases when opponent checks to u.
    • imfromsweden007
      imfromsweden007
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.10.2008 Posts: 726
      Im breakeven when calling 3bets over 600 hands, but what a lot of people seems to miss is the fact that it really depends on how much you fold to 3bet. If you get to the flop with a strong range = you'll make money. If you instead call a lot of 3bets, obv you're supposed to make less money postflop.
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      Originally posted by imfromsweden007
      Im breakeven when calling 3bets over 600 hands, but what a lot of people seems to miss is the fact that it really depends on how much you fold to 3bet. If you get to the flop with a strong range = you'll make money. If you instead call a lot of 3bets, obv you're supposed to make less money postflop.
      True.
      Faced 3bet filter should be more appropriate. I'm running -35bb/100 over 2k hands there, but no idea what's solid winrate there. Maybe we could share this wr instead of called 3bet ?
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by getdotacom
      Originally posted by imfromsweden007
      Im breakeven when calling 3bets over 600 hands, but what a lot of people seems to miss is the fact that it really depends on how much you fold to 3bet. If you get to the flop with a strong range = you'll make money. If you instead call a lot of 3bets, obv you're supposed to make less money postflop.
      True.
      Faced 3bet filter should be more appropriate. I'm running -35bb/100 over 2k hands there, but no idea what's solid winrate there. Maybe we could share this wr instead of called 3bet ?
      You mean to filter for CO&BTN raise as a hero and then faced 3bet?
    • mko101
      mko101
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.01.2009 Posts: 2,160
      Originally posted by getdotacom
      True.
      Faced 3bet filter should be more appropriate. I'm running -35bb/100 over 2k hands there, but no idea what's solid winrate there. Maybe we could share this wr instead of called 3bet ?
      That's a pretty solid wr because you're making close to 200-250bb/100 on your calls, depending on the size of your open.

      Btw. It doesn't have to be exactly CO and BTN. My filters include any position.
    • b1Tb
      b1Tb
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 2,502
      -118bb/100 when faced preflop 3bet for me. Is it that I'm so bad or that getdotacom is so good? :D
    • owi85
      owi85
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2012 Posts: 18
      what i usually do is just filter for faced 3b + folded to 3b, then divide losses/#of hands and that will show me how much i lose per hand if i just fold to the 3b obviously.
      then just change the filter to faced 3b + called 3b, do the same thing and see if my losses per hand are significantly (or at all smaller) when i defend vs. 3b. over a larger sample that should be a pretty decent indicator if i'm defending reasonably well if i'm losing less than i would if i were to just fold to the 3b, or is my thinking flawed?
    • imfromsweden007
      imfromsweden007
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.10.2008 Posts: 726
      Originally posted by getdotacom
      Originally posted by imfromsweden007
      Im breakeven when calling 3bets over 600 hands, but what a lot of people seems to miss is the fact that it really depends on how much you fold to 3bet. If you get to the flop with a strong range = you'll make money. If you instead call a lot of 3bets, obv you're supposed to make less money postflop.
      True.
      Faced 3bet filter should be more appropriate. I'm running -35bb/100 over 2k hands there, but no idea what's solid winrate there. Maybe we could share this wr instead of called 3bet ?
      Same problem here though. It depends how much we open in the first place, somebody who opens 85% on the button will obviously lose a bit more when 3bet, compared to someone who opens 20% (as the 20% will have a lot stronger range when he does face a 3bet).

      I'm not 100% sure on how to filter actually, maybe filter for "chance to steal"?
    • kotsebotse
      kotsebotse
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2009 Posts: 4,918
      Originally posted by mko101
      Originally posted by getdotacom
      True.
      Faced 3bet filter should be more appropriate. I'm running -35bb/100 over 2k hands there, but no idea what's solid winrate there. Maybe we could share this wr instead of called 3bet ?
      That's a pretty solid wr because you're making close to 200-250bb/100 on your calls, depending on the size of your open.
      Not exactly true, because when you face 3bets, you are also 4bet/calling with the top of your range with which you probably have positive wr ;)

      And yeah, the wr in those spots definitely depends on many factors like how wide you open and how much you call/fold to 3bets.

      Cheers,
      kotsebotse :s_cool: