[Video] Desultory - 400nl Live

    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Video: 400nl Live
      Producer: Desultory
      Length: 48 minutes

      Please welcome Desultory and his premier poker training video. Feel free to leave comments, questions and advice about future videos.
  • 12 replies
    • bartjuh
      bartjuh
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2007 Posts: 55
      Nice vid.

      J8s hand. You say you fold this on BTN vs tough regs. Can you talk a bit more about this?
      Do you think we can't show a profit with this hand type vs these kind of players?
      Or does it make our range easier to play defending vs 3bets?
      Do you think they adapt by tightening their 3bet range or does it take a while?
      If they tighten up will you open this hand again?

      99 hand facing min 5bet
      This is a tough one. It looks like a really strong hand wanting to keep you in. But he knows, so maybe he reps that. With position and odds I think call is ok.
      But do you do this only to setmine?
      What if the board comes 3 low cards or one overcard Jxx, Txx?
      I think I would fold (flop unimproved) but watch this player closely if he is capable of making this play as a bluff.
    • Desultory
      Desultory
      Basic
      Joined: 06.02.2013 Posts: 127
      J8s hand: Pleno1 thinks I should open J8s and K5o OTB. I'm not advocating folding those hands - I'm just illustrating that I have folded them in the past and I will in the future. My button range is pretty dynamic depending on how good I think the blinds are. I've been opening 90% buttons at lower limits recently. But I still think this specific J8s fold is fine. This specific hand was 3way as well and people seem to think they have to play more aggro if they are 3way, when it is exactly the same as every other button,sb,bb scenario.

      TuffShark in particular, in the big blind, is difficult to play against; he calls a wide range and 3bets a wide range vs buttons and he will play back a lot post flop. If I was opening wider then vs a 3bet I might feel compelled to call with this hand in order to keep my fold to 3bet unexploitable, and that makes me a little uncomfortable vs him.
      Also, by opening less, he is spewing into a tight range by being overly aggressive. Its impossible to know if I would make more money by having a tighter range but it makes logical sense to me and I have opened less OTB than is standard over large samples and achieved similar button win rates to when opening wider.
      I don't think your missing out on much profit if any at all, by not opening those hands.

      From experience, I don't think players adapt their 3bet range much at all. I.e. it takes a long while before they realise. Even then, they don't adjust by much imo. Players do not adjust well generally imo. I will open the hand for metagame reasons sometimes, but if he does adapt by a lot it will show up in his stats after a few hundred hands, and yes I may start opening it again. More importantly, if id I noticed him NOT playing back post flop, i'm more inclined to open again.

      99 hand is one of those spots where he might be bluffing a lot or not at all, and you never know, so I play it cautious until I witness something suspect from that player. If this guy is a barrel one give up type, I might call one, but usually I am just folding flop. He gives me odds purely to chase, so thats what I'm doing.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      heh, Yeah I gave Luke some stick for being a nit on the button, but we just have different playing styles/gameplans. He is solid and good, I am laggy :)
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      http://gyazo.com/cca31358b3c1a7b6fc4fefafdff76265

      I looked up 25% open in equilab and J8s was definitely in it, then I added few things. I think the idea of opening slightly tighter is certainly fine, but not opening such a connected hand ip has to be a crime. Also by no means do you have to defend j8ss to be unexploitable vs 3bets, can choose better hands to call with, 4bet/call and 4bet fold with from your range very easily.

      The 45 hand on top left corner, where you cbet on 62x, got x/r by midstake and then 3bet, I think 3betting is best also if you are going to play back but vs midstack i think it's fine to go smaller than 72 (he went 12>32 i think). I think since he will just be jamming or folding 60 will also get the job done. Anyway nit picking.

      Also had some other points written out but lost internet and havent had a chance to finish video.

      Overall, like pleno said very good/solid/tight approach to the game and is def worth the watch.
    • Desultory
      Desultory
      Basic
      Joined: 06.02.2013 Posts: 127
      Its interesting that Poker equilab puts in J8s into its automatic 25%. How does this software calculate this 25%? I.e. How does it decide that J8s is better than 55 to open? Its also got K9o in the 25%.
      This is interesting to me, because I have always valued low Suited 1 gappers (64s), pocket pairs and suited connectors over K9o and J8s. By opening these I certainly balance better on boards and I think the hands play better BUT the K9o/J8s will probably have > equity vs his calling range than the low suited hands, so maybe it is better to open these???

      If I open 90%-70% I think J8s will go in our unexploitable play back to 3bet range. (Basically the same argument for raising it, gives the argument for calling it)

      In regards to the 54 hand:
      'midstake' - do you mean mid stack? If so, you are right. Thats a mistake under time pressure. I used a standard full stack 3bet size.

      And thanks for your positive comments. I'm very pleased.
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      Originally posted by Desultory
      Its interesting that Poker equilab puts in J8s into its automatic 25%. How does this software calculate this 25%? I.e. How does it decide that J8s is better than 55 to open? Its also got K9o in the 25%.
      This is interesting to me, because I have always valued low Suited 1 gappers (64s), pocket pairs and suited connectors over K9o and J8s. By opening these I certainly balance better on boards and I think the hands play better BUT the K9o/J8s will probably have > equity vs his calling range than the low suited hands, so maybe it is better to open these???

      If I open 90%-70% I think J8s will go in our unexploitable play back to 3bet range. (Basically the same argument for raising it, gives the argument for calling it)

      In regards to the 54 hand:
      'midstake' - do you mean mid stack? If so, you are right. Thats a mistake under time pressure. I used a standard full stack 3bet size.

      And thanks for your positive comments. I'm very pleased.
      Actually I have also for the longest time wondered how the software calculates its hands also. Thinking about it some more, I agree with you that vs someone playing solid, it makes more sense to have a balanced range that can attack every board but yea I don't know if it's better to have a more balanced range or a range with more equity. I would love to hear some other thoughts on this also and we could work out a good range to open. Also definitely up for a debate, reviewing this spot some more.

      Also my comment about not having to defend j8s was about not for if you open 90-70%, i was talking about if you opened like 30%-40%. If you are opening 90% it would have to be because the reg is folding too much to steals then you are already exploiting his nittyness pre that you wouldn't worry about being unexploitable vs 3bets. Obv we shouldn't be opening that wide vs tough regs.

      Yea I meant mid-stack sorry.

      I will try to finish the video today and make some more comments :)
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Really solid playingstyle. Maybe sometimes a bit too tight (?) :) . But nice vid sir, wp!

      Now time for some questions. (Not as many as in Pleno playing NL200 zoom hehe)

      • 8:05 - TJo in BB, don't you think we have to be at least calling here preflop? We have good odds and have already position on the SB. If you think we can't call it's maybe one of the best hands to 3B/bluff?

      • 9:29 - You fold J9o vs BTN minraise. Don't you think we should defend a hand as strong as J9o?

      • 16:25 - You call 55 preflop but I wonder wheter this can be profitable? Should we just 3B or Fold these baby pairs? With those hands we also don't flop much equity most of the time so we can't bluff by check/Raising too much either.

      • 23:20 - After you 4B QTs, can you talk a bit about your sizing? I wonder what determines wheter we should get it in in 2 streets or in 3 streets. On such a dry board it might be better to bet really small 3 times? Or don't you want to induce and go for max FE on the flop and thus kinda play this spot in a vacuum?

      • 26:10 - QJo on the top left table. I think QJo is one of the strongest hands you fold so we should put it in our 3B/bluffrange. Or do you like to 3B/bluff other types of hands?

      • 41:10 - KJo, Can't we go for a delayed CB on the turn? We have a heart as backup and people will expect us to bet flop with air vs missed CB so we def rep some valuehands.

      • 44:50 - 99: Do you play 4B/broke here preflop then? Because I think we can pick better hands to 4B bluff.


      Thanks ones again! Looking forward to te next one :f_cool:
    • Sjors777
      Sjors777
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2009 Posts: 7,400
      Nice vid :)

      Some questions too:

      11:19 : (54o) Why do you take this bluffsize on flop? If vil calls he will have effectively 152$ left on 165$ turn pot. This does not look convenient imo. Is this a size that you would take with a valuehand? With what value hands would you balance this play?

      26:10 : (aks) What is your cold 4b/broke range here and what is you coldcall range in this spot?

      38:25 : (aqo) What about cbet flop and barrel turn? Vil's range is mainly pp's and ajs+,Aqo+ so i don't think he will be capable of calling us down.
    • Desultory
      Desultory
      Basic
      Joined: 06.02.2013 Posts: 127
      8:05:
      This is almost word for word what Pleno1 said when he saw it.
      Looking at it again, I think 3betting it is probably not so good with unknown fish tendencies in sb.
      I think its an incorrect fold though and I think I should definitely call.
      Trying to think back, I really wonder why I did fold it. Listening to myself - I didn't even consider calling.
      I hate playing 3way, but this is the perfect spot to play 3way so yep, I think thats an embaressingly nitty mistake. Maybe I have been playing too many tables for too long.

      9:29:
      He looks quite cally so I don't like a 3bet with it - my 3bet range would be very wild if I'm 3betting hands as weak as J9o.
      J9o is ok to call here though. Hes opening very wide. If you do call, you will have to mess around pre flop though.
      I think folding it is fine too. I think I am defending enough to not allow him to profit purely from opening so its not a neccessity to put J9o in that range. Not all hu players call J9o oop? so that proves how loose it is.
      Playing more speculative unsuited type hands oop, might be ok, but I think this is preference on how loose you want to be pre. Thankfully a fold is fine here imo.

      11:19:
      Someone above mentioned they thought sizing was bad. Without looking at it I declared they might be right.
      But after looking at it, I don't think its terrible sizing. Aslong as I leave less than a pot sized bet on turn I think its fine. A bit bigger would be better to look more like I have value hands. $76-$78, but thats like $4-$6 difference so I don't hate my size.
      I don't balance for the sole purpose of balancing alone. If I think the spot is exploitable, I expoit it, and I have the perfect hand to bluff with. I wouldn't do it with all hands obviously. Is he balancing his check raise range? Noooo.
      I have no idea what value hands I would play like this looking back. Anything I say is already influenced by how the hand played out. I think given I thought he has lots of air at the time, I probably call my value hands, meaning I am completely exploitable to a ship in this specific spot. But that doesn't mean I am exploitable in every spot. Often it can be the opposite, where I have no bluffs. Depends on feeling at specific time in specific spot. Impossible to give you exact ranges - I would be making them up.

      16:25:
      You want me to call J9o vs a min raise but don't want to call 55...Interesting. With 55, I will have a pair on every flop. He doesn't barrel much, If he barreled more then maybe 3bet would be better. Call or 3bet fine imo.

      23:20:
      I prefer getting things in on 2 streets, even value hands. Not giving them odds to chase the whole way then hit river. If you have loads of bluffs then betting smaller is better with your range, but if you have loads of value, you don't really want to bet small, unless you know he is super spazazy, so you are then inducing.
      in this spot.
      I don't want to induce with my bluff hand vs a player that may be spazzy enough to raise air. I feel like bit bigger makes me look stronger and makes him play more face up.

      26:10:
      QJo; Pleno said the same thing to me about JTo. 3betting it is fine. I won't always do it though. If you always do it just because you have QJo then your 3bet % gets wild. Also, when you hit your equity, you are usually dominated.
      I personally prefer low pocket pairs and suited connecters for 3bets for that reason. Pleno dissagreed with me though, so note this is different among regs, and therefore probably fine either way.

      26:10
      AKs: In this specific spot, maybe I 4bet bluff AQo because I don't think its good enough to call, but I don't think I'll ever have value here. I am overcalling with AKo+, AQs, AA-99 most prob.

      38.25:
      Does he fold AQ on flop. Does he fold pocket pairs on turn. Does he fold Top pairs on turn.
      I am looking very laggy on that table specifically, so I don't know what hes thinking about me.
      If I barrel turn I feel like I should barrel river, because I am unsure he is folding the hands I want him to fold. I may be making a mistake on either street.
      Would it be ok, maybe. Some players will do it without question. Too much speculation for me and I just give up while I've got other hands going.

      41:10:
      Possibly ok. Unsure if they are folding enough though. They might bet their air on turn, which makes them weighted towards something. I just avoid spots like this, especially vs semi unknown guy.

      44:50:
      Its a 4bet bluff. What better hands are there? Ax,Kx blockers? Blockers play less well if he does call 4bet.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Thanks for all the reactions!

      44:50:
      Its a 4bet bluff. What better hands are there? Ax,Kx blockers? Blockers play less well if he does call 4bet.


      Yes I think we can bluff hands like AXs.

      I just think almost all players will either 5bet or fold in that spot so that's why I prefer blockers. Do you think you can ever flat 99 preflop on the 3bet?

      By the way, you have an awesome nickname ;)
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Oh and you have really interesting popups! I'm making some too atm.

      Where do you find stats for CC 3bet? and Cold4B?
    • Desultory
      Desultory
      Basic
      Joined: 06.02.2013 Posts: 127
      I looked through briefly and they aren't easy to find. They are amongst the HEM2 stats though if you look hard enough.

      I don't like flatting in that specific spot but I wouldn't blame anyone for doing it. It may be ok.

      Ax would be better, but its different from a 3bet spot where you can wait for better 3bet hands, because good open 4bet spot happen less open. So I think 99 is ok but not perfect.