introducing the 5bet/folds

    • Lackoogcb
      Lackoogcb
      Black
      Joined: 16.04.2008 Posts: 1,648
      Hey guys! I have an intresting question, so I start a thread about it.

      We are in the blinds and the villain (good reg) minraises the button 2bb, and we 3bet it to 8bb, then he pops up to 18bb...

      here comes the intresting part:

      because 5bet shove is way too expensive, we consider to build up a 5bet range about 28-30bb, then folding some and calling some hands of our range

      question: should we do this?

      Options:
      1) :diamond: forget it, not that expensive ship it bit*h what are you a baby seal?

      2) :diamond: oh man you just came from heaven, i should do this too, but my favorite 3B/5B cards are A2-A5s what the hell gonna do about that? We can't use our FE with them by 5betting small, and can't 5B/calling with them, so srsly wtf you can't destroy my dreams I want to shove with babyaces like a real baller

      3) :diamond: dude i'm smarter than u, we should keep some hands for 3B/5B shove bluff, 3B/5B shove value, 3B/5B/fold and 3B/5B/call ranges as well

      Okay I like option 3, but If we 5bet 30bb with A2s-A5s we almoooooost have to call... because A5s has 30-35% eq and we need 34% for BE call, and we have a really hard job to keep so many ranges in our pocket and balance it.

      What do you think?
  • 25 replies
    • atton64
      atton64
      Platinum
      Joined: 31.01.2008 Posts: 1,502
      When we 5b shove 100bbs to 18bbs with 31% eq against his calling range we have to get a fold around 53% of the time if I counted it right.

      Lets say its BB vs CO:
      CO 1stR 3bb BB 3bets to 10 CO 4bets to 22 BB 5bets to 100. 31% eq against calling range.
      In this scenario we have to make him fold 47% of the time. 6% seems too much for me.

      IMO we have to open a min5b range at DvB battles.

      And we can call a lot more 4bets. 2,65:1 so 27% eq is needed against his overall 4b range to be break even.

      My strategy would be something like that:
      fold to 4bet(bottom of the 3b range, calculated GTO by default!)
      calling 4bet:medium strenght hands protected with a few premiums
      min5b/f:which are too weak to call a 4bet but have some card removal effect
      min 5b/c: "premiums"

      I don't think we should have 5b shoving range here.
    • bartjuh
      bartjuh
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2007 Posts: 55
      I think the 3rd option is ok if he 4bet bluffs a decent amount.

      So in wide steal-resteal situations:
      Hands to put in 5 bet shove range AK, AQ , Some Axs ,some combo's KK-AA, All JJ-QQ, (99-TT if that is in our stack off range)
      Hands to put in min 5bet range some combo's: KK-AA, and some hands from our 3bet bluff range that have not enough equity to call a shove.

      What would be good candidates? Some Kx? suited connectors?
      What do we do with the small pocket pairs from our 3bet bluff range?
      I don't think we have enough equity vs most call shove and 6bet shove ranges? So could these be candidates too?

      This might be a good strategy to be able to put more 5bet bluffs in our range,
      but only if we play against lagtards like Pleno1 :D

      Another option is to call his 4bet with part of our range that plays well vs his 4b bluff range but we don't want to get it in with, and balance with some monsters.

      But if we have to balance all this my head explodes :D
    • Lackoogcb
      Lackoogcb
      Black
      Joined: 16.04.2008 Posts: 1,648
      Originally posted by bartjuh
      of course, this scenario includes the villain 4bets a lot (i forgot this)
    • atton64
      atton64
      Platinum
      Joined: 31.01.2008 Posts: 1,502
      Originally posted by bartjuh
      I think the 3rd option is ok if he 4bet bluffs a decent amount.

      So in wide steal-resteal situations:
      Hands to put in 5 bet shove range AK, AQ , Some Axs ,some combo's KK-AA, All JJ-QQ, (99-TT if that is in our stack off range)
      Hands to put in min 5bet range some combo's: KK-AA, and some hands from our 3bet bluff range that have not enough equity to call a shove.

      What would be good candidates? Some Kx? suited connectors?
      What do we do with the small pocket pairs from our 3bet bluff range?
      I don't think we have enough equity vs most call shove and 6bet shove ranges? So could these be candidates too?

      This might be a good strategy to be able to put more 5bet bluffs in our range,
      but only if we play against lagtards like Pleno1 :D

      Another option is to call his 4bet with part of our range that plays well vs his 4b bluff range but we don't want to get it in with, and balance with some monsters.

      But if we have to balance all this my head explodes :D
      Why do we want to complicate our life? Why do we need 5b push range in thar scenario,assuming that he never calls min5b?
    • bartjuh
      bartjuh
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2007 Posts: 55
      Originally posted by atton64

      Why do we want to complicate our life? Why do we need 5b push range in thar scenario,assuming that he never calls min5b?
      Of course we want to keep things as simple as possible. But I'm afraid to make mistakes with the baby suited aces and the small pairs. It feels just easier to shove those than to have a very close decision to call or fold to a 6b. But maybe considering rake we have a clear fold.

      And if we ever see him 6b bluff we need to adjust again, because I don't like folding A5s to A4s :D
      But overall your strategy is good I think.
    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,843
      you can put in some % your clear valuerange into your small5B/F-range and in some % intoyour 5b-shove-range - this way you could likely still 5b/shove your mall pps and small Axs if you wish and also have a bluff5b-range - sure it will not be perfectly balanced, but at least somewhat and this could be in practice already enough....
    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,843
      Originally posted by atton64
      ]

      Why do we want to complicate our life? Why do we need 5b push range in thar scenario,assuming that he never calls min5b?

      I dunno waht limits oyu play but at SSNL+ these days you simply usually cannot assume this, unless you know this for sure (but having such a strong read is rarely) - as a default imo you have to assume that there is a significanlty >0%-chance that you small5bets will get called in some %...
    • atton64
      atton64
      Platinum
      Joined: 31.01.2008 Posts: 1,502
      Originally posted by IronPumper
      Originally posted by atton64
      ]

      Why do we want to complicate our life? Why do we need 5b push range in thar scenario,assuming that he never calls min5b?

      I dunno waht limits oyu play but at SSNL+ these days you simply usually cannot assume this, unless you know this for sure (but having such a strong read is rarely) - as a default imo you have to assume that there is a significanlty >0%-chance that you small5bets will get called in some %...
      OK, then I want to ask you which hands do you 5b/fold then?
    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,843
      Originally posted by atton64
      Originally posted by IronPumper
      Originally posted by atton64
      ]

      Why do we want to complicate our life? Why do we need 5b push range in thar scenario,assuming that he never calls min5b?

      I dunno waht limits oyu play but at SSNL+ these days you simply usually cannot assume this, unless you know this for sure (but having such a strong read is rarely) - as a default imo you have to assume that there is a significanlty >0%-chance that you small5bets will get called in some %...
      OK, then I want to ask you which hands do you 5b/fold then?
      imo silid 5b/F-hands are hand with good blocker-value and good TP-value (for cases you get called - SPR will be low and flopping a TP increases in value) while not being comitted vs. a jam.

      Mostly cou can use for this offsuited BWs, such as KQo, ATo, KJo...
      suited BWs you can potentially have in your call-4b-range... or in your 5bjam range, depending on how you wanna construct your gameplan...
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      the problem I see with a 5bet/fold range made of high PP and blockers is that you'd have to jam any flop. So couldn't it be exploited?
    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,843
      Originally posted by thazar
      the problem I see with a 5bet/fold range made of high PP and blockers is that you'd have to jam any flop. So couldn't it be exploited?

      ?
      why would you have to jam any flop then?
      I go in 5b_pots lik 1/5th pot or so as a default...already usually enough to set stacks up
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      Originally posted by IronPumper
      Originally posted by thazar
      the problem I see with a 5bet/fold range made of high PP and blockers is that you'd have to jam any flop. So couldn't it be exploited?

      ?
      why would you have to jam any flop then?
      I go in 5b_pots lik 1/5th pot or so as a default...already usually enough to set stacks up
      forgive me if my question sounds fishy :)

      example of 100bb stacks
      - villain opens 3bb
      - we raise 9bb
      - villain 4bet 20bb
      - we min 5bet 31bb ?

      stack is 62bb

      - we bet 13bb?

      so we invest a potential 44bb to fold to a raise on the flop. or we just give up on flop? IMO a very small bet will invite in many case a raise whether for value or as a bluff. I think a shove will maximise the fold equity.

      1) if we have a hand like KQ, AQ on a low board we can get hands like AK, lower pp (that havent hit of course) to fold
      2) on low board we also protect an over pair like JJ- QQ for higher cards coming on later streets.

      I think betting small (1/5 pot) has so little fold equity that if you are going to fold to a raise you might as well give up there. also if you get called do you barrel as a bluff? and how much (to keep consistent with value bets)

      I think with a 100bb effective you get very quickly committed, or is my sizing all wrong?

      Thanks

      Thazar
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      The guy who calls the 5bet has a speculative/merged range, the min5better usually has a super polarized range of QQ+/AK and some air. There's really not much the caller can do - On so many flops he has to play fit or fold, even vs a really tiny cbet.

      But generally if the initial raiser's 4bet range is balanced, he can 6bet jam so much, he's risking 80 more to win 131. I think the required fold equity is around 45% if I recall correctly from my past calculations.

      Basically you can abuse people pretty hard when they are unused to it, but these days people just start 4betting larger again and when the 4b size is above 20bb+ people just revert back to the 5bet push or fold mode again.

      Thanks.
    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,843
      Originally posted by thazar
      Originally posted by IronPumper
      Originally posted by thazar
      the problem I see with a 5bet/fold range made of high PP and blockers is that you'd have to jam any flop. So couldn't it be exploited?

      ?
      why would you have to jam any flop then?
      I go in 5b_pots lik 1/5th pot or so as a default...already usually enough to set stacks up
      forgive me if my question sounds fishy :)

      example of 100bb stacks
      - villain opens 3bb
      - we raise 9bb
      - villain 4bet 20bb
      - we min 5bet 31bb ?

      stack is 62bb

      - we bet 13bb?

      so we invest a potential 44bb to fold to a raise on the flop. or we just give up on flop? IMO a very small bet will invite in many case a raise whether for value or as a bluff. I think a shove will maximise the fold equity.

      1) if we have a hand like KQ, AQ on a low board we can get hands like AK, lower pp (that havent hit of course) to fold
      2) on low board we also protect an over pair like JJ- QQ for higher cards coming on later streets.

      I think betting small (1/5 pot) has so little fold equity that if you are going to fold to a raise you might as well give up there. also if you get called do you barrel as a bluff? and how much (to keep consistent with value bets)

      I think with a 100bb effective you get very quickly committed, or is my sizing all wrong?

      Thanks

      Thazar

      noprob that a 1/5th potbet in a 5b_pot migth have OTF little FEQ (it also needs btw only a little^^), as long
      - as you have a somewhat balanced range
      - you have later on potetnially even increased FEQ
    • yegon
      yegon
      Silver
      Joined: 23.02.2012 Posts: 3,045
      Originally posted by thazar
      example of 100bb stacks
      - villain opens 3bb
      - we raise 9bb
      - villain 4bet 20bb
      - we min 5bet 31bb ?
      would we even want to have a min5b range in this scenario? due to the large open and large 4bet and only 100BB stacks there is enough money to just 5bet ship

      a min 5bet is really cutting it thin with folding to a 6bet potoddswise


      I would develop a small5bet range in situations where the risk/reward of 5bet shoving is not good for us. Especially vs BTN minraises as was statetd in the OP.

      If we would want to 5b/f IP vs a 3xbb open we should decrease our 3bet sizing or be deeper
    • yegon
      yegon
      Silver
      Joined: 23.02.2012 Posts: 3,045
      regarding the postflop play - what do you think about checking a lot of flops instead of autosmallcbetting

      stackwise we do not need 3 streets to get the money in
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      I think the small cbet is necessary because we have often a very strong range and some bluffs so we need to cbet => value + induce shove or a little fold equity.

      I will try to find some spots and practice , maybe posts some hands and maybe you guys can advice me if I chose the right spots or not :)

      thanks for the reply, very very helpful
    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,843
      Originally posted by thazar
      I think the small cbet is necessary because we have often a very strong range and some bluffs so we need to cbet => value + induce shove or a little fold equity.

      I will try to find some spots and practice , maybe posts some hands and maybe you guys can advice me if I chose the right spots or not :)

      thanks for the reply, very very helpful
      yeah, do this - looking forward^^

      what`s also btw an interesting topic is the opposite:
      Cause the min5b-thing gets more and more popular, imo we have to start thinkng how to play at best vs it, IP and OOP...
    • oblioo
      oblioo
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 02.10.2012 Posts: 337
      Originally posted by atton64 [edited/cleaned up a bit]
      My strategy would be something like:
      fold to 4bet: bottom of the 3b range
      calling 4bet: medium strength hands protected with a few premiums
      min5b/f: which are too weak to call a 4bet but have some card removal effect and/or reasonable equity
      min 5b/c: premiums

      I don't think we should have 5b shoving range here.
      this sounds pretty good to me
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