Is this turncheck a correct one?

    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,838
      Poker Stars $2/$4 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players -
      MP: $497.89
      CO: $90.90
      Hero (BTN): $425.20
      SB: $400.00
      BB: $400.00
      UTG: $636.40

      Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is BTN with 3 :diamond: 3 :club:
      UTG raises to $8, 1 fold, CO calls $8, Hero calls $8, 2 folds

      Flop: ($30.00) 9 :heart: 3 :spade: A :heart: (3 players)
      UTG bets $18, CO folds, Hero calls $18

      Turn: ($66.00) Q :heart: (2 players)
      UTG checks, Hero checks

      River: ($66.00) 7 :diamond: (2 players)
      UTG bets $48, Hero calls $48


      Co is a fish
      and Villain is tuffshark who`s a solid thinking Reg.
      Th thing is the Reg`s perceived cbet-range is pretty valueheavy imo cause not only it is 3-way with a fish being involved, but also the fish has only very litle left (will go lighter broke)...
      Hence my flopcallrange is perceived to be kindastrong as well.
      The turncard even improves my flopcallrange and in this scenario I just lack bluffs to be able to val.bet....

      So what you think bout the idea of checkin here basically your entire range back OTT, including of course as well your toprange...?
  • 6 replies
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      I'm not really good enough to give you advise here :D . But what do you think about tuffshark his openingssize? I've seen in Desultory's vid that he likes to open 2x from each position. Could this be even better? lnternet also did in in the allstarsvid.

      Personally I would bet the turn cause he can have a lot of hands he's going to check/call like AXh.
    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,838
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      I'm not really good enough to give you advise here :D . But what do you think about tuffshark his openingssize? I've seen in Desultory's vid that he likes to open 2x from each position. Could this be even better? lnternet also did in in the allstarsvid.

      Personally I would bet the turn cause he can have a lot of hands he's going to check/call like AXh.
      @size:
      It is not better or worse than for isntance 3x.
      It is rly about your gameplan and in detail about your ranges you wanna be opening from each posi.
      Fundamentally speaken, the wider you wanna open, the smaller your size should be and vice versa...
      But it has nothing to do with what is better or worse and hence copying other ppl`s approach could lead to making it worse for you cause it depends on your own range...


      @turn:
      sure he has, but many hands you cannot vla.bet anymore and then your checkback-range will become ready to be raped in a spot where it seems to me that it would be in theory best to have maybe even only a checkbackrange OT due to all mentioned reasons (I have here no real air in my range... )
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      True but maybe we can strengthen our range then by checking AxJh (if u dont sqz pre?). Our hand is too strong to check now, I think, and a heart is really bad for us so we still want some protection.
    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,838
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      True but maybe we can strengthen our range then by checking AxJh (if u dont sqz pre?). Our hand is too strong to check now, I think, and a heart is really bad for us so we still want some protection.
      not rly - my advice:
      try to think bout your range you wanna call OTF (hint: it should be in this particualr spot due to mentioned reasons a strong one) and then check out how strong 33 is here OTT given your flopcallrange - likely you will be surprised to realize that we`re even not near top of our range...

      a good palyer will btw. rarely C/C here twice with worse and vs. a good player it is also crucial to play your range - and given thatI have no air I can bluff here, it rly seems that checback is best, unless I overlook something , but so far I have no reason to believe this - mb this coul change when other ppl will post here, we`ll see^^
    • Lackoogcb
      Lackoogcb
      Black
      Joined: 16.04.2008 Posts: 1,648
      I'd rather have 33 in my raising range here, because we have a very wide flatting range pre cuz the minraise and cuz the fish's call as well. We should call pre something like this i guess: 22-99, A8o,A9o(maybe even sqz them but whatever) A2s-A9s, KTs-K5s, QJs-Q7s, JTs-J8s, T8s, 97s, 87s, (76s)

      (if blinds sqzy then risky and thight up...)

      so we will have a BUNCH of FDs (like ~15 combos) what we want to flat, but also will have same amount of spade bdfds what has bdsd as well so we want to raise with them as bluffs i guess. (like 10-12 combos). We have some 9x spade combos what we will flat on flop and a lot lot of Ax. So we want to raise some% of our A9o, A9s, 33, 99, A3s that's for sure.

      But with the turn play I totally agree, we will have so many weak Ax hands on the river, we don't want to fold that much against vs an UTG valuebet OTR, so we definitely should have some nut hands in our checking range, but think about it if we raise all of our value on flop, that is not a problem, because on this flushcard we have a lot of new nut hands (all of our XhXh hands) and we can checkback some% of them. And then we raise on flop A3s, A9o, A9s, 33, 99 (18 combos) so we can bluff all of our XsXs combos (except 9sXs) and a lot more weaker hands like 44h, 55h or something similar equity.

      Well we don't know before turn what will the turn be, so maybe not raising flop all of the nut hands, but min.50% we should and at least that many combos of bluffs (i prefer bluff more combos than value combos because of the backdoor equity)
    • Lackoogcb
      Lackoogcb
      Black
      Joined: 16.04.2008 Posts: 1,648
      oh and we have some Asxs!!! sweet as well