Is Villain`s call spew and not well thought out?

    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,843
      $2/$4 No Limit Holdem
      PokerStars
      6 Players
      Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG ($849.92) 212bb
      UTG+1 ($400) 100bb
      CO ($322.69) 81bb
      BTN ($418.11) 105bb
      Hero (SB) ($406.72) 102bb
      BB ($160) 40bb

      Pre-Flop: ($6, 6 players) Hero is SB J:club: 8:club:
      3 folds, BTN raises to $8.80, Hero raises to $31.40, 1 fold, BTN calls $22.60

      Flop: A:club: J:heart: 8:spade: ($66.80, 2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $32, Hero calls $32

      Turn: 5:club: ($130.80, 2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN checks

      River: Q:club: ($130.80, 2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $152, Hero goes all-in $343.32, BTN calls $191.32

      Final Pot: $817.44
      BTN shows
      10:diamond: 9:spade:
      Hero shows a flush, Ace high
      J:club: 8:club:

      Hero wins $814.64 (net +$407.92)

      BTN collects $0.00 (net -$406.72)


      He is a nit playing 18/14 but w BTN-steal of 50% (on all other streets he is too nitty).
      Fold to 3b BTN: 66%
      Fold to cbets rr pot: 47%/50%/40%
      Stab IP OTF: 65%
      afq (streetwise): 46/29/23

      BB was a fish, but J8s feels little too weak to coldcall here, so I went ahead and made the 3bet with one of the better hands i do not call here...

      I think that the flop connects pretty well with Villain`s 3b-callrange so I have toC/F some and hence also do check here in some % w solid Draws (here mb KQs w the BDFD - though dunno how good it is in the vacuum tbh..) and some valuehands.

      So I don`t mind my flopplay, though in hindsight when I thing again about this hand, I still wanna check here some vlauehands,
      but maybe this hand should be in my bettingrange - reasons:
      - Gameplanwise: I do wanna have here a mixed strat of barelling and checking cause
      there are many hands in Villain`s range which will not fold OTF, but potentially later on...
      so i wanna bluffbarell someb stuff like T9s, gutters w mb a BDFD and blockers to villain`s stronger Ax-hands (KQ would be likely pretty nice barellhand) and to balance this out, I also need some vlauehands in my bettingrange...

      - vacuum-wise: This particular hand does not block Villain`s worse valuehands, namely TPs.
      So mbI rather should check here some TPs, AA and AJ/A8s, instead of J8s....

      What you think bout all of this so far?


      as played,
      I wondered bout the Overbet from Villain OTR (looks polarized), but figured out that I still need to jam my hand cause just too little hands have me beat (though vs. his size I think I would not jam for value any thinner - you agree?).
      Once I jammed, he snapped in a milisecond like a real Boss.

      His call looks pretty bad to me cause it is questionable if my bluffingfreq. with hands like Idk, KcKx or so would be high here, given that he overbetted OTR.
      But let`s say he would have choosen a normal size such as 2/3-3/4-PS - even then his call looks bad to me cause he has no reason to beleive that Im gong here nuts and turning a ton into a bluff and hence imo he would not need to bluffcatch too much - so that I think that bluffcatchers with a :club: involved woul easily do the job - what do you think?
  • 3 replies
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      Originally posted by IronPumper
      BB was a fish, but J8s feels little too weak to coldcall here, so I went ahead and made the 3bet with one of the better hands i do not call here...
      I think J8s is certainly call>fold with fish behind. But given BT plays badly (f3b too high, fcbet too high), 3betting may still be better than calling. I would just call though and 3bet trash instead.


      Originally posted by IronPumper
      I think that the flop connects pretty well with Villain`s 3b-callrange so I have toC/F some and hence also do check here in some % w solid Draws (here mb KQs w the BDFD - though dunno how good it is in the vacuum tbh..) and some valuehands.
      You are overthinking here. You play against a weak player. You do not need to balance your ranges on the flop. He folds too much to all bets. He most likely doesn't value bet thinly enough and doesnt bluff enough. You should make a play that is best against this player, not a play that is good against some high stakes heads up mega crusher.


      Originally posted by IronPumper
      - vacuum-wise: This particular hand does not block Villain`s worse valuehands, namely TPs.
      So mbI rather should check here some TPs, AA and AJ/A8s, instead of J8s....
      Exactly the opposite! This is one of the best slowplay check call hands as it does block his med strength hands (those that check behind and would call if you bet) and does not block his thin value hands (he can have all Ax). Esp the last part is what you want. You slowplay to punish value bets that are too thin, so you should allow him to have those when you do slowplay. AA, otoh, is a terrible slowplay check on this flop.

      Originally posted by IronPumper
      I wondered bout the Overbet from Villain OTR (looks polarized), but figured out that I still need to jam my hand cause just too little hands have me beat (though vs. his size I think I would not jam for value any thinner - you agree?).
      He reps KT very well. A few random flushes that did not bet turn, a few T9 that did not bet turn, and perhaps some slowplayed set or a thin value bet with Qx 2pr. Mostly he reps KT I believe. (And some bluffs of course)

      So you can shove anything that beats KT I think. Which is flushes only.


      Originally posted by IronPumper
      His call looks pretty bad to me
      He needs to call 69% of his river value bets to your shove to not fold too often. If he value bets a few 2pr, sets, T9, all KT, and a few flushes, this threshold falls on set or T9. T9 with club or set with club or QJ with Jc are all better calling hands than T9 no club though, so this hand is probably a fold for him, I agree.

      Originally posted by IronPumper
      His call looks pretty bad to me cause it is questionable if my bluffingfreq. with hands like Idk, KcKx or so would be high here, given that he overbetted OTR.
      You are saying you would not bluff as often as you should be bluffing here? And that he should know that, and in turn exploit you by folding this hand? So you play badly, knowingly, expect him to know that, and expect him to exploit that, and almost insult him when he doesnt? That is a very strange thought process I have to say :)
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Got to love lnternets' judgings!
    • IronPumper
      IronPumper
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.01.2008 Posts: 14,843
      Originally posted by lnternet
      Originally posted by IronPumper
      BB was a fish, but J8s feels little too weak to coldcall here, so I went ahead and made the 3bet with one of the better hands i do not call here...
      I think J8s is certainly call>fold with fish behind. But given BT plays badly (f3b too high, fcbet too high), 3betting may still be better than calling. I would just call though and 3bet trash instead.


      Originally posted by IronPumper
      I think that the flop connects pretty well with Villain`s 3b-callrange so I have toC/F some and hence also do check here in some % w solid Draws (here mb KQs w the BDFD - though dunno how good it is in the vacuum tbh..) and some valuehands.
      You are overthinking here. You play against a weak player. You do not need to balance your ranges on the flop. He folds too much to all bets. He most likely doesn't value bet thinly enough and doesnt bluff enough. You should make a play that is best against this player, not a play that is good against some high stakes heads up mega crusher.


      Originally posted by IronPumper
      - vacuum-wise: This particular hand does not block Villain`s worse valuehands, namely TPs.
      So mbI rather should check here some TPs, AA and AJ/A8s, instead of J8s....
      Exactly the opposite! This is one of the best slowplay check call hands as it does block his med strength hands (those that check behind and would call if you bet) and does not block his thin value hands (he can have all Ax). Esp the last part is what you want. You slowplay to punish value bets that are too thin, so you should allow him to have those when you do slowplay. AA, otoh, is a terrible slowplay check on this flop.

      Originally posted by IronPumper
      I wondered bout the Overbet from Villain OTR (looks polarized), but figured out that I still need to jam my hand cause just too little hands have me beat (though vs. his size I think I would not jam for value any thinner - you agree?).
      He reps KT very well. A few random flushes that did not bet turn, a few T9 that did not bet turn, and perhaps some slowplayed set or a thin value bet with Qx 2pr. Mostly he reps KT I believe. (And some bluffs of course)

      So you can shove anything that beats KT I think. Which is flushes only.


      Originally posted by IronPumper
      His call looks pretty bad to me
      He needs to call 69% of his river value bets to your shove to not fold too often. If he value bets a few 2pr, sets, T9, all KT, and a few flushes, this threshold falls on set or T9. T9 with club or set with club or QJ with Jc are all better calling hands than T9 no club though, so this hand is probably a fold for him, I agree.

      Originally posted by IronPumper
      His call looks pretty bad to me cause it is questionable if my bluffingfreq. with hands like Idk, KcKx or so would be high here, given that he overbetted OTR.
      You are saying you would not bluff as often as you should be bluffing here? And that he should know that, and in turn exploit you by folding this hand? So you play badly, knowingly, expect him to know that, and expect him to exploit that, and almost insult him when he doesnt? That is a very strange thought process I have to say :)


      very best post so far which refers to my posted hand - thx, could have taken with me some points out^^ - only for such high-quality interactions Im posting here and there hands - so hope you will visit more of my threads and point out some thought-mistakes of me^^

      Exspecially the reminder that vs. weak regs I should mostly forget balance and go for the max EV-vacuumplay + also pointing out my thoughtprocess-mistake regards to which hands would be good slowplayhands helped me a lot^^

      @last thought:
      yeah, mb its a little strange.
      In practice at 2/4 just most ppl do not bluff a lot here by C/Ring vs an OB.
      So based on average reg-population he could assume that Im bluffing here too less, like most regs do... at least that was my thought...

      Vs. a "common" size this would change.