[NL20-NL50] NL20 SH QJ bet turn?

    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,070
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.20(BB) Replayer
      SB ($34.96)
      BB ($57.64)
      Hero ($23.83)
      CO ($9)
      BTN ($17.10)

      Dealt to Hero Q:spade: J:heart:

      Hero raises to $0.60, fold, fold, fold, BB calls $0.40

      FLOP ($1.30) J:diamond: A:club: 3:club:

      BB checks, Hero bets $0.70, BB calls $0.70

      TURN ($2.70) J:diamond: A:club: 3:club: 4:club:

      BB checks, Hero bets $1.40, BB calls $1.40

      RIVER ($5.50) J:diamond: A:club: 3:club: 4:club: 5:club:

      BB bets $3.30, Hero folds

      BB wins $5.23



      I don't see many hands that could pay me on turn. JTs maybe and thats it. DId not know what to do. If I check turn, I expect oftne bet on the river and I am really not sure if I could call, blank river lets say.
  • 8 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      hey,

      On the turn you are already pretty much screwed unless you plan on bluffing him on turn + river. Check and give up is fine but I don't like cbetting that sizing here. Why bet 1/2 pot instead of 2/3 or 3/4? What about checking back?
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,070
      Why bet 1/2 pot instead of 2/3 or 3/4? What about checking back?



      if you mean turn sizing - its 1/2 because to a bigger bet I get even less value - most of hands fold. I was not thinking about turning it into bluff, I don't make better hands to fold on turn I think.

      Checking back is the only option probably, but then I am practically allowing him to bluff on river. BUt at the same time it would be a tougt to blufcatch with such medium hand.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Check and give up is fine but I don't like cbetting that sizing here. Why bet 1/2 pot instead of 2/3 or 3/4? What about checking back?
      Heya, was refering to the flop cbet size. You don't rep a value hand with your sizing.. it's just super weird sizing actually given stacks, texture and positions.

      Checking back flop and bluffcatching turn would be my line and decide river. Otherwise, you usually have to try and turn it into a bluff often or cbet and give up. Betting that turn is only spewing money because it helps your opponent's range quite a bit, he almost never folds. That's why I brought up turning it into a bluff on river by 3 barreling some runouts.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,070
      Heya, was refering to the flop cbet size. You don't rep a value hand with your sizing.. it's just super weird sizing actually given stacks, texture and positions.


      oh. Then this sizing is for thin value and keeping pot smaller with medium hand. I saw others bet small with small hands. Why is that bad there?

      I like also check flop and bluffcatch turn, but thats not my standard so I did not do that without knowing if its good.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      It's usually OK to bluffcatch because the average aggression here is low enough to get to showdown often.

      Regarding the flop sizing, I don't like it without a more solid reasoning as to why it works well in general.. Do you get called and then see checks through all the way to river and win vs hands like 77? Basically, if it turns your hand into a bluff, betting just once and that sizing is not that great.

      Don't get me wrong, it's easy to make a mistake in this spot because sometimes your hand can get value and sometimes (or better said against others) it cannot so against an uknown it's always a bit of a gamble of what line to take (passive or aggressive). I've found the passive line a bit better at micros so I would check more often than bet here, probably around 75% check and bet 25% of the time since I'm facing someone I assume is a bit more call happy than the average unknown but no real solid info.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,070
      Do you get called and then see checks through all the way to river and win vs hands like 77? Basically, if it turns your hand into a bluff, betting just once and that sizing is not that great.


      There is a good chance that he will bet at some point. But I don't expect too much calls with 77. If he has it, maybe he likes to see showdown. Because on turn turn I doubth that he is bluffing without knowing how weak I am.

      THen if I check turn, I show weakness so he could assume that I am on weak hand and bluff.

      But then I can bluffcatch river. So he does not know, be he should assume that I will bluffcatch with 2nd pair if I checked turn. So he should not bluff. BUt thats a gamble as you said, we cannot know.

      ---

      THis hand looks so strong that turnining into a bluff looks weird. And he can have Ax which he is calling 3 streets. JT maybe he folds but I beat it anyway. I am not sure what I can bluff out which is stronger.

      On this river I can bluff out many hands if I could cbet, but this is an exception - not often such situation.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      The idea of bluffing with it is to make him fold a lot of Ax ofc. If he cannot fold that, you don't have enough hands to bluff him off of so then turning it into a bluff doesn't make sense, like you said. :)
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,070
      The idea of bluffing with it is to make him fold a lot of Ax ofc.


      Hes Ax is AJ+ in his preflop calling range, which I really doubt is folding unless the board is like this. Or i should make overbet on flop and to big bets. But then still do we make him often enought to fold AQ and Ak. WIthout info I guess we cannot assume. We have to invest so much money.