Should i fold Kings?

    • shloogy
      shloogy
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.04.2008 Posts: 263
      Hi
      Kings dealt to me.i pfr
      Tight BTN reraises me, when i looked at his stats i saw that he has 2%.i said to myslef : "ho boy he has aces" and he did.

      should i fold in this situation?
  • 31 replies
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      WHich position do you open, which are the effective stack sizes, which limit do you play, what´s your table image.
      With your giving information noone can say if you should fold kings.
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      I never ever fold KK preflop for just one stack with just one exception. If I have the solid read on a really nitty player that he only 4bets AA, than I might fold. If you have any doubt about this read never fold KK!

      Best regards,
      TribunCaesar
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      coincidence but AAvsKK rarely happens although you see it quite enough when you multitable.
      So I go with Tribun's advice ;)
    • Mukenzie
      Mukenzie
      Silver
      Joined: 29.06.2008 Posts: 10
      i agree, never fold KK, expect when the action gets real freaky...

      Like 10/5 and 8/4 reraise eachother allin then it prob means they got AA/KK/QQ then you can consider folding.

      But there are alot of guys who go allin with JJ/QQ/AK also they may go allin because of tilt on another table etc.

      so most of the time a call with KK is good.
    • NiekamNeidomu
      NiekamNeidomu
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      Joined: 29.05.2007 Posts: 307
      anyway...if he has Aces..you can still dog him out..
    • shloogy
      shloogy
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.04.2008 Posts: 263
      yo Tribun, 2% reraise pf isn't nit enough to fold? 2% is AA and KK only, and since i had the kings ...than ...
    • Gonira
      Gonira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2008 Posts: 5,247
      no, you should not. next.
    • Gonira
      Gonira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2008 Posts: 5,247
      i mean... if the boy is tight, he'll probably 4bet with QQ+ and AK. kings are in front of this range. and there is yummi dead money into the pot. well, he might have aces, but man... no. pushhhhhh!
    • straddler71
      straddler71
      Global
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 516
      I was in this exact situation today. I was the tight and aggressive player with aa and the other player had kk. Villain posted dead blind in cutoff position. Two people limped in front, villain min raised, hero min raised back in sb, everyone else folded, villain puts in another small raise, hero calls. Didn't take long for both stacks to get in the middle. Hero doubled through. This was the first time that I ever played villain today, had no information about him, hand basically played itself.

      Laying down kk against a tight player is difflcult, theres only one hand that has you crushed, aa. Im willing to go broke with this hand.
    • Gonira
      Gonira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2008 Posts: 5,247
      NO MIN RAISES, PLEASE!

      it really makes me angry.
    • Mukenzie
      Mukenzie
      Silver
      Joined: 29.06.2008 Posts: 10
      if you min raise a min raiser you get a normal bet :P
      tho i only do this with pocket pairs
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      with 20BB effective stack its ALWAYS a mistake to fold KK) absolutely no matter what)

      with 100BB effective stack its 99% a mistake to fold KK)
      as Tribun has mentioned, there are some cases when you can actually think about, but sample needs to be freaking huge)
      + many other things to consider, most of them were mentioned by Kaitz

      + lets say you open for 4BB (100BB effective) he 3bets to 12BB and you know for sure he has AA (which is not really possible!!! even a small deviation of like 5-10% will make a difference in EV)
      you can still call for set value :D kind of)

      you need to call 8BB, pot is 16BB and he has 88BB left
      which is 13:1 immplied
      and you need 9:1 I guess (since you can fold when A flop comes, to avoid being overseted)

      When you know your opp has AA you can call wider, any pp basically
      but in reality, you can never know it for sure
    • Gonira
      Gonira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2008 Posts: 5,247
      I SAW IT! MY LIFE HAS CHANGED!

      a buddy posted a hand in the portuguese community today. he has kings. 2% pfr deep stacked pushing after a 4bet. he called. he didn't show what villain had yet, but man, i say... i would fold. crying. it's here.

      http://pt.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=7851

      but i still think min raises are stupid.
    • straddler71
      straddler71
      Global
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 516
      Gonira sorry I min raised. I rarely do it, I don't like those kinds of raises either. I only did it because as stated earlier this was the first time I had played villain. Too many times I've had no action when I had aces. I normally raise 4times plus 1 blind for each limper.
    • Gonira
      Gonira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2008 Posts: 5,247
      np, straddler. but you have to understand that it is nothing personal, neither superstition or something like that. =P

      min raises are just non profitable movements. doing this you will give odds to your opponents to make right calls even if their hands are worse than yours. along with this, you will not create proper value to your strong hands. a good size for 3bets is 3 times the initial raise, 3.5 times if you are out of position. i do this when i 3bet with aces and i do this when i 3bet with nothing. this way i keep opponents guessing and keep myself hard to read, besides the other things i said.
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      Originally posted by Gonira
      np, straddler. but you have to understand that it is nothing personal, neither superstition or something like that. =P

      min raises are just non profitable movements. doing this you will give odds to your opponents to make right calls even if their hands are worse than yours. along with this, you will not create proper value to your strong hands. a good size for 3bets is 3 times the initial raise, 3.5 times if you are out of position. i do this when i 3bet with aces and i do this when i 3bet with nothing. this way i keep opponents guessing and keep myself hard to read, besides the other things i said.
      #2

      That's how it works.
    • straddler71
      straddler71
      Global
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 516
      Gonira I get what your saying and I agree with you but I had no prior information on my opponent and If I put in a standard raise he might fold on me and I really want the action. Actual stats, 22.2% of the time I held aces I got no action. That number is too high for me. That hand really didn't matter what I raised, I had aces he had kings all the money got in the middle and I won the pot.

      Gonira what are your stats with aces? How many times have you gotten no action? What about you tribune?

      If I had prior info on villain and he was a tight and aggressive player I would have reraised at least 3 times his bet.

      Gonira, tribune thanks for your insight.
    • Gonira
      Gonira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2008 Posts: 5,247
      it's easier to get action of loose players in reraised pots. no way i can agree with the min raise. don't let your opponents draw cheaply, it is a crime. i don't know my stats with aces, but i tell you that just in rare ocasions i'm not the last one to reraise pre flop when i have them, i simply never min raise, and of course this hand continues to be my most profitable one. aces are strong, but they're only a pair. you wish as large a pot as possible pre-flop when you play them, so you can get a stack without being outdrawn. it's difficult to make someone put big money in a small pot with a vulnerable hand like top pair, believe me. and against all the other hands, aces lose.

      btw, it doesn't matter if the opponent is unknown. a standard 3bet with aces is... well... standard.
    • finchybg
      finchybg
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2007 Posts: 910
      To cut the long story short, if you stick it in with KK or AA pre-flop - you're a happy man :)
      KK vs AA is not a nice sight but shit happens - don't be afraid of it, after all even then you still have 20% to suck out on the bullets :P

      raise raise raise
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