5CD Micromillions that costed me 75% of my stack. Did I do the right thing?

    • Metamorphis
      Metamorphis
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.09.2011 Posts: 47
      The blinds are 350/700, 175 ante.

      A person from MP limps with 15k chips. I'm in BB with 20k chips and min-raise with up&down straight draw to see if I can steal the pot there or try to get my straight.

      He changes 3 cards and I change 1. I got my 8 high straight. Then he moves all-in with all of his chips. I've been playing very tight up to this point so I figured out he's trying to bluff me or got trips or something like that, seemed unlikely at the time so I put him on either a big hand like house or a stone cold bluff with trips or something.

      I decided to call and he shows quad 9's. I was down to 5k chips, from MP I raise all-in with AA, the same person is in BB, thinks for a moment and call. Both of us change 3 cards.

      I got AA55 and lost to his AAJJ. Should I have folded the straight earlier?
  • 9 replies
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,913
      Hi,
      I called an all-in thinking he was bluffing, because I, too play pretty tight.

      He wasn't bluffing.

      I'm pretty new to NL 5-Card Draw, btw so take this for what it's worth.

      In your case did villain appear to be a competent player?

      You've got infinite pot odds so playing the draw is something I would do.
      OK so far.

      Now the big question:
      In the same situation, would you play it like that again?

      Made straight vs Draw 3?

      I think he played this poorly.
      With quads or FH, to shove he risks you folding.
      Small bet -- 1/2 to 3/4 pot, you re-raise, then he shoves/

      You can't just fold to every bluff monkey either, or you get taken for everything.

      So you have to call sometimes, and I think this was a good enough call.

      I'll be interested in hearing what others say.

      All the best,
      --VS
    • Metamorphis
      Metamorphis
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.09.2011 Posts: 47
      Villain seemed to be a risk-taker, rather loose but decent enough I guess, thought of him as a fish. Definately someone I could see as trying to steal the pot. I think I would have called again at that spot, 1; He changed 3 of his cards while I changed 1 in BB. Not to mention that I also min-raised. Pre-draw it could be seen as a bluff and it was a semi-bluff in my case. Given how tight I played it was a very loose call by him there, but atm it was the right one. Plus I didn't want to risk too much of my stack at this point when I didn't know if he limped because he was drawing something as well. If he'd call with his stack I knew he had me dominated anyways and it would be an easy fold after the draw, and if he's loose; he'd probably call anyways. Unless I had done what I think would be a -EV raise when I didn't know his cards and considering both of our stacks. I also think that the min-raise would put more money in the pot if he called and I hit my draw along with the potential fold.

      But to go all-in after the draw seemed very strange to me so I put him on trips. I made a pretty weak bet afterall and figured he thought his trips would be better (trip A's/k's), or the very unlikely scenario; higher straight, quads, flush or fh. But unfortunately he got one of those unlikely hands.

      My reasoning for calling is that it's a perfect bluffing spot if I had two pair or trips. I would most likely have folded if he went all-in unless I got trip A's or better. (I'd also like some thoughts about calling with trip A's in the same spot.)
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,913
      I have played in a total of 5 NL 5-Card Draw Tournaments.

      I cashed in two (one was the ticket that got me into this).

      In the other 3, I went out all the same way:
      Good 2-pair hands or trips getting beaten by better.
      Most commonly vs player drawing 1 and hitting straights and flushes.

      Today, same thing:
      My trips got beat -- I played the 2pr hands v softly.

      In your case, raise, draw 1 you would still be willing to call a bet -- even a fairly large one w/ AAAxx.

      But 78% of the stack is a lot.

      I watched part of the final table, and was surprised at how loose the players seemed to be in some spots, yet overly tight in others.

      I've a lot to learn...
      --VS
    • Metamorphis
      Metamorphis
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.09.2011 Posts: 47
      Yeah. In 5CD MTT's I never feel safe with trips after the flop, I always raise the BB 2.5 no matter wich cards I choose to play with. Some people call and raise a lot and by always playing strong hands in a set way usually gets my speculative hands to the draw, and if I got a decent read on my opponent I usually get away with a bluff in position as well. With a strong image like it's even easier to determine how good of a hand the villain has. Especially if he re-raise you and you call.

      I find it easier to see betting patterns in 5CD than HE, but it's also easier (for me) to do ''mistakes'' like I did with my straight.

      @ VOrpal: What I've learned so far; If you're raising before the draw with trips and get called, expect to get called with up&down straight draws, flush draws, two pairs etc. I'm folding more often than not if someone raise more than half the pot after changing 1 card (depends on history etc., if I don't got any real history on him, I sometimes just call if I can afford it to get info). Plus, he might think twice about raising another time if he sees that I'm willing to call a bet with trips. But I always slow down if they bet a lot after changing 1 card. More often than not they got a great hand, especially if they re-raise you.

      Here's another tricky part for me tho'. Do I change 2 cards and reveal my trips in multi-handed pots? Or do I change 1 card wich will keep people constantly questioning what I have? I always change 1 card when I got trips, thus lowering my chances for getting quads or FH (if I'm not mistaken), but also rasing the chances of someone with two pair, lower trips (hopefully) or AA calling me.

      A rule of thumb I have made for myself is to take it with ease with trips after the draw unless I know the range to those I play with. I limp/fold with JJ-KK if I got 40+BB's, less than 10 BB's or less = All-in with AA+. Always raise 2.5BB's with AA, two pair, up&down straight draws, flush draw, and trips (people often fold and I often get the blinds this way). If I already got a made hand, I limp in EP and hope for a raise, or I raise 4 BB's in big hopes someone call or re-raise (to wich I just call unless I got an A high flush or better). If the table is generally agressive I raise 2.5 BB's with made hands as more people often get involved and/or re-raise eachother and a decent pot has been build, wich hopefully plays out in my favor, haha.

      ANY thoughts and feedback from anyone on this style of play would be appreciated a lot! I might have completely misunderstood the game as well, but this is how I've been playing it.

      Got to say tho', 5CD is my favourite poker game. And I really want to learn MTT's 5CD play properly.
    • Balance1
      Balance1
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2009 Posts: 10
      I used to play 5CD FL & PL earlier, imo calling with a straight is not a mistake in that situation.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,913
      Originally posted by Metamorphis
      Yeah. In 5CD MTT's I never feel safe with trips after the flop, I always raise the BB 2.5 no matter wich cards I choose to play with. Some people call and raise a lot and by always playing strong hands in a set way usually gets my speculative hands to the draw, and if I got a decent read on my opponent I usually get away with a bluff in position as well. With a strong image like it's even easier to determine how good of a hand the villain has. Especially if he re-raise you and you call.

      @ VOrpal: What I've learned so far; If you're raising before the draw with trips and get called, expect to get called with up&down straight draws, flush draws, two pairs etc.
      Yeah, I saw a lot of people raising with weak draws. I will raise w/ FDs in late pos, draw 1 and lead out as a bluff vs people drawing 3.
      Once I saw that people would raise in EP or MP w/ 8-straights, I started 3Betting all their raises any time I had a decent 2 pair or better. After draw, I would check behind w/ the two pair, because I also noticed a lot more people were check/raising after the draw than I'm used to.

      I will CALL with a draw if I have pot odds.

      I HATE playing weak straights.

      I realize that my betting and my thinking is all fixed-limit.
      I had not been considering Implied odds.

      In the MicroMillions I did not see anyone snowing -- although I saw quite a bit in other 5CD MTTs


      I find it easier to see betting patterns in 5CD than HE, but it's also easier (for me) to do ''mistakes'' like I did with my straight.
      The more I think of this hand, the more I think that you played it properly and got unlucky. Even the shove -- since you covered him, he could have been trying for a fold.


      I'm folding more often than not if someone raise more than half the pot after changing 1 card (depends on history etc., if I don't got any real history on him, I sometimes just call if I can afford it to get info). Plus, he might think twice about raising another time if he sees that I'm willing to call a bet with trips. But I always slow down if they bet a lot after changing 1 card. More often than not they got a great hand, especially if they re-raise you.
      My biggest leak in FL 5CD was calling bets after draw w/ lousy 2pr hands.
      In MTTs the same thing happens only has moved up a notch to trips.


      Here's another tricky part for me tho'. Do I change 2 cards and reveal my trips in multi-handed pots? Or do I change 1 card wich will keep people constantly questioning what I have? I always change 1 card when I got trips, thus lowering my chances for getting quads or FH (if I'm not mistaken), but also rasing the chances of someone with two pair, lower trips (hopefully) or AA calling me.
      I have drawn 2 w/ trips if it is already obvious what I have. If I draw 1, I don't keep an A, K or Q as kicker, since other people are more likely to keep them.

      If I have done the maths right, if you hold 3 of a kind, and
      xx
      Draw 1:
      Odds to hit FH   :  14.7:1
      Odds to hit quads:  46.0:1

      Draw 2:
      Odds to hit FH   :  15.4:1
      Odds to hit quads:  22.5:1



      A rule of thumb I have made for myself is to take it with ease with trips after the draw unless I know the range to those I play with. I limp/fold with JJ-KK if I got 40+BB's, less than 10 BB's or less = All-in with AA+. Always raise 2.5BB's with AA, two pair, up&down straight draws, flush draw, and trips (people often fold and I often get the blinds this way). If I already got a made hand, I limp in EP and hope for a raise, or I raise 4 BB's in big hopes someone call or re-raise (to wich I just call unless I got an A high flush or better). If the table is generally agressive I raise 2.5 BB's with made hands as more people often get involved and/or re-raise eachother and a decent pot has been build, wich hopefully plays out in my favor, haha.
      I have seen people limp w/ pat hands, I have not yet done it, since I NEVER limp any other time. In the PokerStars 5CD MTTs though, if you get two limpers and then someone raises, you have great odds to call, so maybe this is a good idea.
      I pretty much play that if I I'm going to play a pot, I enter it with a raise. I figure that if I limp or call, they can't fold. You get very few folds anyway though. I do call in rare circumstances with things like Aces up or kings up, and there is a raise and a call before me. I should probably squeeze though.


      Got to say tho', 5CD is my favourite poker game. And I really want to learn MTT's 5CD play properly.
      It is certainly a lot more fun to play than Hold'em.
    • Metamorphis
      Metamorphis
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.09.2011 Posts: 47
      Another question I wonder about.

      I usually play the 1.10$ NL5CD 200$GTD on PS and I got an interesting hand in the BB. 3 people limped and I was given this hand:

      2:diamond: 2:heart: 6:spade: 9:spade: T:spade:

      With 22 I might get two pairs or trips vs. 3 people that might try to hit their draw. I checked ofc. and decided to keep the low pair and changed 3 cards. I won the pot with 22.

      However, was it the right thing to do? I mean, with 69T suited I can be lucky enough to hit straight or a flush (or both at the same time, heh..) Even if I got two pair or trips with 22 I might already be dominated against higher trips or two pairs. And if I miss it's easier to fold.

      With 6910 the chance of getting a higher pair is there (TT for example) and I might win the pot with that if someone decided to limp with 88 etc. as I see some people do that from time to time as well.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,913
      To hit a flush when drawing 2 the odds are about 23:1 against.
      BTW, in the olden days, we called drawing 2 to a flush "cat hopping"
      I don't know why.

      To hit another 2 the odds are 7:1 against.

      Assuming that the 3 villains are ALL drawing to flushes -- and lets just say that they are all drawing to DIFFERENT flushes, each is 4:1 against.

      The odds of all of them missing are:
      0.8 x 0.8 * 0.8 which works out to only about 50%

      I more commonly see 3 people limp and draw 3 -- there, EVEN IF YOU HIT your 2 pair with 2s, have to face the fact that 3 the odds of all 3 missing aren't good.

      It is about 35% probability that they will all miss, so once again, even if you hit you lose.

      In the case of 6:s9:sT, you actually have straights and straight flushes too.
      You might as well keep the spades -- or even toss all 5.

      I wish jbpatzer would have a look at this, he and another member huricano both know way more about this than I do.

      All the best,
      --VS
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
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      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      The odds of making a straight or flush are teeny tiny (that's a sophisticated mathematical term), you're OOP (this really matters in big bet games) and you have a hand with some value. I'd just draw three and hope you can check it down. If a fish limps, draws one and then bets in a multiway pot, I would probably fold even if I made trips. But I am a huge 5cd nit obviously.