Folding KK

    • 4KYOU
      4KYOU
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      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 38
      I have recently been losing out to AA all-in races when holding KK. I can often put the villian on AA due to the amount of re-raises and the type of player before going all-in. My question is if I am 100% sure that villain has AA and I am holding KK does it really make it a profitable call for me to call a shove?
  • 11 replies
    • 4KYOU
      4KYOU
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      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 38
      I should mention that I am currently playing NL4 and NL10.
    • doctorkgb
      doctorkgb
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      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,263
      If you are 100% shure (and you can't be), answer is obvious. But you can't be unless you have 300+ hands (or 1000+ even better), and some sick notes regarding amount that he raises with AA
    • 4KYOU
      4KYOU
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      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 38
      Thanks Doctor, very true! I can't be 100 percent sure about anyones hand but I am talking about when I am up against a tight reg with an equal stack to mine (I play big stack strategy) who also perceives me as hopefully being pretty tight. I also have villain down as someone who wouldnt shove without having KK or AA. I've often read that we should always be willing to shove KK pre-flop but I wonder if this is a +ev move against someone we've put on AA?
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
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      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      Originally posted by doctorkgb
      If you are 100% shure (and you can't be), answer is obvious.
      agreed :f_biggrin:

      that said, sometimes you can guess a range of KK+ pretty accurately for some specific spots. (very low preflop aggression, note on flat QQ/AK)
      and since you have two blockers for KK, most likely scenario is that you are up against AA. :f_biggrin:

      it's easy to be way overly worried about that when it is happening a lot in a short period of time though.
      just don't worry about it so much :f_biggrin: if you are just shoving every time you really shouldn't feel bad about it.
    • 4KYOU
      4KYOU
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      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 38
      Thanks Tomaloc, that makes me feel better and makes a lot of sense. If I worry too much about shoving KK I could also lose alot of profit. I will continue to shove those might kings when needed.
    • vuciitis
      vuciitis
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      Joined: 19.02.2011 Posts: 1,314
      Originally posted by Tomaloc
      Originally posted by doctorkgb
      If you are 100% shure (and you can't be), answer is obvious.
      agreed :f_biggrin:

      that said, sometimes you can guess a range of KK+ pretty accurately for some specific spots. (very low preflop aggression, note on flat QQ/AK)
      and since you have two blockers for KK, most likely scenario is that you are up against AA. :f_biggrin:

      it's easy to be way overly worried about that when it is happening a lot in a short period of time though.
      just don't worry about it so much :f_biggrin: if you are just shoving every time you really shouldn't feel bad about it.
      so basicly you are saying that i can always go all in preflop with KK and in long term it will be +EV? and how high in matters of limits i can keep doing that? i guess nl25 should be around the border line?
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
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      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      it's a bit funny that we are even talking about that :D

      if we are not valueshoving KK, that implies that we are valueshoving AA only.
      which implies that we also are never shoving QQ, AK, bluffs...

      when should we have a value range of AA only? only if villain's range is also like KK+ only.
      and why would that happen? because he has nitty tendencies, you are perceived as having nitty tendencies, or both. :f_biggrin:
      tendencies will also be naturally tighter when in earlier positions or with deeper stacks.

      higher limits are mostly more aggressive so i'd say it's even more +EV to stack off with KK there, and you'll most often also be stacking off "even" with QQ and AK too.

      [edit: i didn't sleep :f_biggrin: so i guess that post wasn't very clear and my point was lost in this random rambling.

      my point is, if villain's shoving range is only KK+, then there are some nitty dynamics going on and you can probably adjust your preflop aggression...
      what is the bottom of the "nitting chain"? is there barely any 3betting going on? then 3bet more, either ranges begin to widen up or you print money from all his folds... is there barely any 4betting going on? same thing...]
    • doctorkgb
      doctorkgb
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      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,263
      Tomaloc made some great points here, and I will add my 2 cents, as well, now when I have time to answer.

      To decide, we need to separate different scenarios. They are not the same!
      Is it full ring, 6max, or even shorter table?!

      It is not same if you play full ring and UTG huge nit open, decent reg 3bet him and we find ourselves with KK, and if we are BvsB or blind vs CO, BU. That leads us to first thing we should consider -
      Our position and villans position.

      Second would be stats. You need a lot of hands to be relatively shure. Over small sample 3bet/4bet stats are useless.

      Notes. You need them because they are more reliable than stats.

      Stakes we are playing.

      Our image. If our image is ultra tight, people won't stack preflop with less than KK+. Stacking with AK, QQ and worse needs some sort of dynamic.

      Let's make comparison:

             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP2    29.38%  26.77%   2.61% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
      MP3    70.62%  68.00%   2.61% { KK+ }


      Obv. range of KK+crushes AK,QQ+ range hard, BUT any player with a HUD and IQ higher than bowl of mashed potatoes will notice that and make so much money 3bet/4beting us because he can be shure that we won't stake off without KK+.

      Without dynamics at micros, it is fine not to stack of with less than KK. But after relatively small amount of hands, you can start experimenting by implementing lite 3bet,4bet bluffs with people you see as nits.

      Also you need to observe how lite people stack off against other players by observing, when you are not in hand and doing session review.

      AK, AQ, KQ are strong hands, but I won't stack of with anyone anytime holding them!!! Their strenght is a blocker effect, and possibility to hit TPTK or TPGK.

      There are 6combos of pairs, (12combos of off non-suited non-paired hands, and 4combos of suited hands)

      If you hold KQ, you block many combos of AK, AQ, KK, KQ, QQ so it is less likely that your opponent is holding them, but not impossible! That is the reason why you can use this strong, but not the strongest hand as a semi-bluff. Same applies to AK, AQ.

      Slow but steady you can try to implement theese hands against people that 3bet you lite, and 4bet them. That doesn't mean you should call a shove, but to build some sort of image thet is gonna allow you to get paid when you hold nuts. Playing 100bb, allows you to experiment and get paid with your strong holdings.

      Gl
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
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      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      you wrote what i wanted to write if my brain wasn't shut off :f_biggrin:

      i tried to include everything in some badly written generalizations, it turned up into a mess and it's appreciated that you made pretty much everything clear there :D
    • vuciitis
      vuciitis
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      Joined: 19.02.2011 Posts: 1,314
      tnx both of you, nice to see some short and simple explenation :)
    • 4KYOU
      4KYOU
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      Joined: 26.11.2012 Posts: 38
      This is great info, very interesting. Thanks guys, currently doing my day job but will have a good read when I get home.