[NL20-NL50] NL50 6max, AKo, unorthodox play

    • Anger86
      Anger86
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2008 Posts: 511
      $50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players

      Hero (BTN): $100.04 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 18, 3B: 7, AF: 4,7, Hands: 3492
      SB: $51.75 - VPIP: 32, PFR: 26, 3B: 33, AF: 2,0, Hands: 19
      BB: $94.66 - VPIP: 27, PFR: 27, 3B: 6, AF: 1,5, Hands: 45
      UTG: $50.00 - VPIP: 16, PFR: 12, 3B: 0, AF: 0,0, Hands: 25
      CO: $50.00 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 18, 3B: 5, AF: 1,3, Hands: 45

      Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BTN with K :club: A :spade:
      2 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, SB raises to $4.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $3.25

      Flop: ($9.50) 7 :club: 5 :diamond: Q :spade: (2 players)
      SB bets $5.50, Hero raises to $95.54, SB calls $41.75 all in

      Turn: ($104.00) T :heart: (2 players - 1 is all in)

      River: ($104.00) K :diamond: (2 players - 1 is all in)

      I sometimes will call 3bets here with KK+, AK and play postflop.

      FLOP:
      42/(42+15) = 73% - needed fold to break even

      His value hands, he'd call - AA-QQ = 15 combos; AQ, KQ = 18 combos
      Total of 33 combos. That's about 2.5 % of all 1326 combonations of poker hands. From those he'd 3bet in between 7-15%.

      Calls from 2.5/7 to 2.5/15. So 35% - 16% he calls my JAM.

      I expect it to be proffitable even if vaillain calls with
      Qxs rags - 3betting air range and also TT-JJ.

      + I have equity with my AKo.
  • 5 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Hey,

      You don't have equity with AK when called more than 16% on average imo. Usually your outs are blocked by his Qx cuz X will be T+ most likely. Needing someoen to fold 70% of the time is actually huge.

      This is 5% range of hands he'd stack off with:


      Board: Q:spade: 7:club: 5:diamond:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP2    16.01%  16.01%   0.00% { AsKc }
      MP3    83.99%  83.99%   0.00% { QQ+, AQs, KQs, QTs-Q9s, Q7s, Q5s, AQo, KQo, QTo+ }



      The AK he folds are 0.83% so you can already see that that range he starts off with will be wider then you expect. If we add JJ and TT to his folding range he folds even less (but you have extra equity). I think there is no way to make him fold often enough to justify shoving here. It will be -EV.

      Furthermore, this will almost never be the best EV play you can make. Preflop, if you expect your opponent to 3bet wide, you should 4bet for value.

      Postflop, you represent more strong hands by calling than by shoving it all in. You even represent more strength by minraising imo. If you minraise, how much will he fold? How does that compare to when you shove? Check it out a bit, I think you will be surprised. :)
    • Anger86
      Anger86
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2008 Posts: 511
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16

      Furthermore, this will almost never be the best EV play you can make. Preflop, if you expect your opponent to 3bet wide, you should 4bet for value.

      I agree, I should have 4bet and stack off.
      I read in a book some strategy, but it was more used for CO
      and vs player who is super aggressive,
      but here I don't have any reason to play this way.
      This CO 3bet flatting strategy suggests to flat
      AA-TT,AKo-AJo,KQo,AKs-AJs,KQs-KJs,QJs
      and actually float or minraise more that
      just JAM fostflop. I guess, AA-KK, can still JAM to trick some
      "that doesn't make any sense" Villains.


      Postflop, you represent more strong hands by calling than by shoving it all in. You even represent more strength by minraising imo. If you minraise, how much will he fold? How does that compare to when you shove? Check it out a bit, I think you will be surprised. :)

      By calling I can actually make a great play in case A or K hits,
      because Villains will often barrell them as scare cards. Also if A or K doesnt hit,
      then they are more prone to just check to me, so I can float a lot.

      Minraise is better for multiple reasons:
      A. Fold equity gets less price - POT=1, Bet = 1/2, raise = 1;
      1/(2.5)=40% needed folds. As you said, if he stacks off 5%,
      then from +/-10% 3bet range. I'd get 50% fold equity.

      B. If Villain starts to JAM over all my cbets (EDIT: cbet raises*) I can do a
      simple adjustment by flatting AA-KK and also play them
      with minraising Flops. (In this case 4bet/call 5bet though, but on the CO vs aggro BU).

      EDIT: Big thanks!
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      I like the idea of sometimes jamming to confuse villain but it's usually my idea that they give it less credit so they call off to light, like you specified there, when having KK+. Apart from that, you would be OOP from CO I assume? If not, IP I think 4betting is more often superior. OOP against a 3bet, when you have to start calling and 4betting makes it too easy for your opponent I also suggested trying out calling with an uncapped range and never 4betting. I don't give the exact range like you gave there because it's relative to how your opponent constructs his own range but what you have there is a good starting point imo.

      If you minraise, it's also unlikely villain bluff jams imo.. he will usually jam hands that call a shove from you anyway so you make him fold the same for a better price. What is good about minraising in a 3bet pot 100bb deep is that it's not too small of an amount, it leverages stacks perfectly for the next street usually so it's the best amount to raise to.
    • Anger86
      Anger86
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2008 Posts: 511
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Apart from that, you would be OOP from CO I assume?
      I actually started to work on that recently,
      but I assume flatting OOP, if OP is very aggressive. If he's
      3betting less in the BU, then I'd just 4bet KK+ as default and try to stack off
      JJ+, AK. And no tricky play.


      If not, IP I think 4betting is more often superior.

      Why is 4betting IP CO vs BLINDS more supperior?
      I hear them (a lot of poker players) saying to flat IP, because it's IP.
      Etc, etc, but I really curiuos about yout thought process.
      Is it this, below?

      IP: Also. Is that because Villain will ussully have a wide range of 3bets.But those 3bets will be more depolarized like: AJ-AK, TT+, KQ. That way when I call, I have about the same range without initiative.
      If I 'd 4bet I kind of turn their game into trouble spot, where thay might want to 5bet JAM AQ, TT+ and level themselves (I've been there myself and level myself into 5betting even KQ), where I have QQ+, AK. Sure, I'd have to fold out a lot from CO.


      OOP against a 3bet, when you have to start calling and 4betting makes it too easy for your opponent I also suggested trying out calling with an uncapped range and never 4betting.


      OOP: Is that because Villain will have a big 3bet percentage of Polarized 3bet range and will be able to prefectly 3/5bet vs us
      and later in the game adjust vs us by just 3betting QQ+ if I
      start to stack off lighter like TT+, AQ+, for example?
      Also, at the same time they will have a better chance to spazz in 3bet pot
      with wider bluff range.


      What is good about minraising in a 3bet pot 100bb deep is that it's not too small of an amount, it leverages stacks perfectly for the next street usually so it's the best amount to raise to.

      POT=~22bbs, cbet + minraise + call = 44bbs,
      Turn POT = 66 bbs, stacks = pot size bet left.
      You are absolutely right.


    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Well, when people 3bet from blinds they also shove wider from blinds so you miss value from TT for example, hand that would 3bet/5bet. Calling IP will never be -EV and depending on your game plan/image, calling IP can definitely be better. I never actually tried that but I think it's a strategy with a lot of potential. I assume also a lot of people say to flat IP because they don't 4bet wide enough to get light 5bets. If you ask pleno1 he'd say people shove too much against him to not 4bet IMO. :D

      Hope that made it clearer, if you have any other questions, fire away. :)