[NL20-NL50] NL50 KQs double float

    • double2
      double2
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 04.11.2008 Posts: 14,642
      Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 4 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      BB: $50 (100 bb)
      CO: $41.57 (83.1 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $53.93 (107.9 bb)
      SB: $51.36 (102.7 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with K Q
      CO folds, Hero raises to $1.12, SB raises to $4.50, BB folds, Hero calls $3.38

      Flop: ($9.50) 7 5 2 (2 players)
      SB bets $5, Hero calls $5

      Turn: ($19.50) A (2 players)
      SB bets $11.50, Hero calls $11.50

      River: ($42.50) J (2 players)
      SB bets $30.36 and is all-in, Hero folds

      Results:
      $42.50 pot ($1.50 rake)
      Final Board: 7 5 2 A J
      Hero mucked K Q and lost (-$21 net)
      SB mucked and won $41 ($20 net)


      Villain 5 k hands
      22/18/7.2%
      3bet vs open BU 12.7%
      cbet flop/turn in 3bet pot 57/56 (9)
      WTSD 24%
      WWSF 47%
      Agg freq 43/34/22

      No dynamics.

      NH? Plan was obv to shove river vs check.
  • 11 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,906
      Hey,

      I think it's reasonable, though A on the turn is often a bad card since more people triple barrel it. You have to think about how likely he is to have heard the advice to always triple on this card, which is ofc hard to say exactly but if you regard him as a good reg you can assume he will shove river close to 100% of the time. Then you can calculate if you have the pot odds + implied odds to call here just for your nutflush. If not, you can consider bluff shoving because you make him fold his weak hands and air plus you have some equity when called. :)
    • double2
      double2
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 04.11.2008 Posts: 14,642
      Fortunaly I do have some Ax combos that float flop, so I'm definitely not bleeding money doing this.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,906
      Originally posted by double2
      Fortunaly I do have some Ax combos that float flop, so I'm definitely not bleeding money doing this.
      That;s good. You want to avoid having very weak ranges in spots people get aggressive with a wide range so having good Ax in your range helps you quite a bit.
    • DarkAwi
      DarkAwi
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2010 Posts: 3,289
      I don't really get the idea behind shoving the turn. Do you think he will fold an ace? If he has some pp that will check/fold river mostly, and they not always continue bluffing on the river. Even if he does, we have great implied odds to call then, as he bets a only bit over 1/2 pot, it's almost an oddscall.
      If we had an Ax, we (or me at least) never shove here on this dry board. We'd just call to let him bluff or am I wrong? So our calling range should be stronger than our raising range. Do we even need to have raising range here?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,906
      You are right that we don't NEED a raising range but it doesn't mean we can't profitably have one. We never expect to make him fold an ace but we can make him fold bluffs/semi-bluffs that have equity and weak made hands. The game becomes more aggressive usually as you move up in stakes and if you don't have raising and calling ranges in such common spots you make it easy for your opponent's sometimes since they know they can bet this turn without ever getting raised.
    • DarkAwi
      DarkAwi
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2010 Posts: 3,289
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      You are right that we don't NEED a raising range but it doesn't mean we can't profitably have one.
      Yeah, I agree, but you'll never be able to balance it on this board. Or should we start raising here with Ax floats and sets without dynamics?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,906
      Originally posted by DarkAwi
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      You are right that we don't NEED a raising range but it doesn't mean we can't profitably have one.
      Yeah, I agree, but you'll never be able to balance it on this board. Or should we start raising here with Ax floats and sets without dynamics?
      What do you mean by balance? It can obviously be balanced but that's rarely the highest EV play though.
    • DarkAwi
      DarkAwi
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2010 Posts: 3,289
      I mean do you ever raise here with sets, Ax floats? I'd just call with them because of the stack/pot ratio. So I have basically no raise range on this turn. Value raise range at least. If it would be A897 double FD, that would be different tho, but on this dry board I doubt we would ever raise the turn for value with Ax, and sets. Okay, he folds his bluffs, but calls with every Ax (even with the weaker ones I guess, because raising here is very suspicious), and we are 25/75 behind.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,906
      I would also call, I don't think you understood what I meant. Shoving is not the standard play anyone makes here but once you get to a point where people construct check/fold, check/call and shove range on river, you no longer can 'exploit' a tendency to have face up hand on river OOP. Then you need to try to not let your opponent play correctly and start adding bluff raises on the turn, thin value raises with a hand like AQ and so on.

      You don't even need to do it 100% of the time with all hands. What makes the 3 barreling idea in 3bet pots that has been discussed here if we were in villain's shoes and in a few other hands is that opponents don't raise turn. When people raise turn, our barreling ranges have to change because they are not suitable for that.
    • DarkAwi
      DarkAwi
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2010 Posts: 3,289
      Okay thanks for explaining, I think I get it, but you are talking about 3barrelling in 3bet pots in general. Very interesting tho, haven't been thinking about it like that. :)

      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      once you get to a point where people construct check/fold, check/call and shove range on river, you no longer can 'exploit' a tendency to have face up hand on river OOP
      But here, in this hand, unless some serious read, villain will never have check/call range on the river, so he will be always face up, don't you think? So we are the ones we can play prefectly against him.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,906
      Yep, for this hand specifically, floating again should be best but we should be aware of each situation about all our options and when people know what we are doing when calling we can definitely strongly consider creating a raising range on the turn. It's impossible to say exactly when like after 2 hands you should change, that's why poker is complex, you have to decide for yourself when you should adjust. :)