3betting

  • 20 replies
    • serverm07
      serverm07
      Basic
      Joined: 08.08.2012 Posts: 1,130
      Hi,

      No it doesn't mean that at all.

      For example we 3bet AJs vs btn open from blinds, our 3bet is initially for value because they will flat with worse, but once a typical reg 4bets we are behind his stack off range and have to either fold or develop a 4bet calling range.
    • tommygecko
      tommygecko
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2012 Posts: 1,229
      Okay, so the purpose of 3 betting value range is to try to make villain continue with worse (whether by flatting or 4betting). If villain 4bets we have to determine which hands we 5bet/flat/fold right?
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      It's not unusual to see someone 4betting and then folding to a 5bet! Either because he thought you was bluffing, so he re-bluffed you, or because he had AQ, JJ, TT maybe AK, or QQ and you have convinced him that your hand is better! Also, I once had the opportunity to see a very good reg fold KK (showing it) after my 5bet AI! He invested more then 30% of his stack at that moment, so his fold was extremely out of mathematics, but I had AA, so there is about 80% chance that he has saved him that 65% of his stack!
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Originally posted by tommygecko
      Okay, so the purpose of 3 betting value range is to try to make villain continue with worse (whether by flatting or 4betting). If villain 4bets we have to determine which hands we 5bet/flat/fold right?
      If you are playing micro-stakes, really fold everything but AA and KK to a 4bet, unless you have a very good read on your villain! My opinion!
    • tommygecko
      tommygecko
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2012 Posts: 1,229
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      Originally posted by tommygecko
      Okay, so the purpose of 3 betting value range is to try to make villain continue with worse (whether by flatting or 4betting). If villain 4bets we have to determine which hands we 5bet/flat/fold right?
      If you are playing micro-stakes, really fold everything but AA and KK to a 4bet, unless you have a very good read on your villain! My opinion!
      I play NL20 right now. And yes right now I am only 5bet shoving with QQ+, AK.

      I'm trying to develop a 3bet range vs loose open raisers who fold to 3bets quite a lot.

      If villain folds 70% to 3bets does it mean that 70% of our 3bet range should be bluffs?
    • tommygecko
      tommygecko
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2012 Posts: 1,229
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      It's not unusual to see someone 4betting and then folding! Either because he thought you was bluffing, so he re-bluffed you, or because he had AQ, JJ, TT maybe AK, or QQ and you have convinced him that your hand is better! Also, I once had the opportunity to see a very good reg open-fold KK after my 5bet AI! He invested more then 30% of his stack at that moment, so his fold was extremely out of mathematics, but I had AA, so there is about 80% chance that he has saved him that 65% of his stack!
      How is it an open fold if he had committed 30% of his stack
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      Also, I once had the opportunity to see a very good reg open-fold KK after my 5bet AI
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      very good reg
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      open-fold KK
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      very good reg
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      4bet fold KK
      :coolface:
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Originally posted by tommygecko
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      It's not unusual to see someone 4betting and then folding! Either because he thought you was bluffing, so he re-bluffed you, or because he had AQ, JJ, TT maybe AK, or QQ and you have convinced him that your hand is better! Also, I once had the opportunity to see a very good reg open-fold KK after my 5bet AI! He invested more then 30% of his stack at that moment, so his fold was extremely out of mathematics, but I had AA, so there is about 80% chance that he has saved him that 65% of his stack!
      How is it an open fold if he had committed 30% of his stack
      Bad grammar! :D What I meant, he folded and showed me KK! I think I saw that term somewhere, but it wasn't open! :D Sorry!
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Gold
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,038
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      Also, I once had the opportunity to see a very good reg open-fold KK after my 5bet AI
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      very good reg
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      open-fold KK
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      very good reg
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      4bet fold KK


    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,338
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      It's not unusual to see someone 4betting and then folding! Either because he thought you was bluffing, so he re-bluffed you, or because he had AQ, JJ, TT maybe AK, or QQ and you have convinced him that your hand is better! Also, I once had the opportunity to see a very good reg open-fold KK after my 5bet AI! He invested more then 30% of his stack at that moment, so his fold was extremely out of mathematics, but I had AA, so there is about 80% chance that he has saved him that 65% of his stack!
      :f_o:
    • holmeboy
      holmeboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2010 Posts: 1,336
      Originally posted by DrDunne
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      ...4betting and then folding!... he had AQ, JJ, TT maybe AK, or QQ
      :f_o:
      I 4b/f AQ, and some combos of AK lol. It seems pretty standard to me...
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,338
      Originally posted by holmeboy
      Originally posted by DrDunne
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      ...4betting and then folding!... he had AQ, JJ, TT maybe AK, or QQ
      :f_o:
      I 4b/f AQ, and some combos of AK lol. It seems pretty standard to me...
      well it's up to you i guess, but if you think about it QQ+ and AK pretty much always get the required equity when facing a ship after you 4bet, assuming your opponent has a continuing range of QQ+ and AK. so.... it's better to pick weaker hands with blockers if you wanna 4bet/fold - like KQ or even AXs and KXs or whatever i don't know i'm not an expert on this topic :D ..

      the way i'm seeing it is TT-QQ and AK are pretty much way up there with the top of your range. turning them into a bluff is gunna be pretty nasty imo. if i don't think i can stack off profitably with them then i won't 4bet them simply because their equity is really not that terrible against QQ+ and AK (when we also include the dead money in the pot it will also most likely be a mistake). if i'm OOP i might make a tight fold (i can't play it well OOP postflop in a 3bet pot so i don't have a flatting range OOP), but IP i think it's gunna be a mistake to play this way. people's ranges are often gunna be much wider when they 3bet from the blinds, and it will most likely be a mistake NOT to stack off with QQ and AK. with AQ and TT/JJ you can easily flat IP and play postflop. that way you don't waste your equity by turning it into a bluff when you could simply bluff with a weaker hand.
    • holmeboy
      holmeboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2010 Posts: 1,336
      Originally posted by DrDunne
      Originally posted by holmeboy
      Originally posted by DrDunne
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      ...4betting and then folding!... he had AQ, JJ, TT maybe AK, or QQ
      :f_o:
      I 4b/f AQ, and some combos of AK lol. It seems pretty standard to me...
      well it's up to you i guess, but if you think about it QQ+ and AK pretty much always get the required equity when facing a ship after you 4bet, assuming your opponent has a continuing range of QQ+ and AK. so.... it's better to pick weaker hands with blockers if you wanna 4bet/fold - like KQ or even AXs and KXs or whatever i don't know i'm not an expert on this topic :D ..

      the way i'm seeing it is TT-QQ and AK are pretty much way up there with the top of your range. turning them into a bluff is gunna be pretty nasty imo. if i don't think i can stack off profitably with them then i won't 4bet them simply because their equity is really not that terrible against QQ+ and AK (when we also include the dead money in the pot it will also most likely be a mistake). if i'm OOP i might make a tight fold (i can't play it well OOP postflop in a 3bet pot so i don't have a flatting range OOP), but IP i think it's gunna be a mistake to play this way. people's ranges are often gunna be much wider when they 3bet from the blinds, and it will most likely be a mistake NOT to stack off with QQ and AK. with AQ and TT/JJ you can easily flat IP and play postflop. that way you don't waste your equity by turning it into a bluff when you could simply bluff with a weaker hand.


      Yeah if I'm in CO and I get 3b from the blinds I'll call the 3b with AQ, and probably 4b/c AK. I'm the same as you oop (4b or fold because I'm clueless if I call!), so I'd rather 4b/f AQ than say KQ because we have better blockers. If I'm UTG I'll 4b/f some AK combos.. From MP onwards I'll 4b/c against most guys on my limit.
    • tommygecko
      tommygecko
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2012 Posts: 1,229
      Are 3bet light and 3bet bluff the same?
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      I actually think that 4bet/folding AK is a valid play in some spots, especially at FR where a lot of players will flat QQ and AK on the BU/CO when you open from UTG/MP and only 3bet and get it in with AA and KK and still having a 3bet% of 2-4% so they fold a ton to 4bets and since you can't really flat AK oop i think its better to turn in into a 4bet bluff then fold it.
    • PickoCro
      PickoCro
      Platinum
      Joined: 14.04.2009 Posts: 83
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      I actually think that 4bet/folding AK is a valid play in some spots, especially at FR where a lot of players will flat QQ and AK on the BU/CO when you open from UTG/MP and only 3bet and get it in with AA and KK and still having a 3bet% of 2-4% so they fold a ton to 4bets and since you can't really flat AK oop i think its better to turn in into a 4bet bluff then fold it.


      Why would you 4bet ak vs someone that has a 2% 3bet?
    • holmeboy
      holmeboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2010 Posts: 1,336
      Originally posted by PickoCro
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      I actually think that 4bet/folding AK is a valid play in some spots, especially at FR where a lot of players will flat QQ and AK on the BU/CO when you open from UTG/MP and only 3bet and get it in with AA and KK and still having a 3bet% of 2-4% so they fold a ton to 4bets and since you can't really flat AK oop i think its better to turn in into a 4bet bluff then fold it.


      Why would you 4bet ak vs someone that has a 2% 3bet?
      If they 3b and only get it in with 12 combos of AA/KK then they still have ~16 bluff combos. And if we're not calling oop then we can 4b/f with AK even against someone with a 2%
    • PickoCro
      PickoCro
      Platinum
      Joined: 14.04.2009 Posts: 83
      Originally posted by holmeboy
      Originally posted by PickoCro
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      I actually think that 4bet/folding AK is a valid play in some spots, especially at FR where a lot of players will flat QQ and AK on the BU/CO when you open from UTG/MP and only 3bet and get it in with AA and KK and still having a 3bet% of 2-4% so they fold a ton to 4bets and since you can't really flat AK oop i think its better to turn in into a 4bet bluff then fold it.


      Why would you 4bet ak vs someone that has a 2% 3bet?
      If they 3b and only get it in with 12 combos of AA/KK then they still have ~16 bluff combos. And if we're not calling oop then we can 4b/f with AK even against someone with a 2%


      He doesn t have 16 bluff combos, qq and ak make the rest of his hands. Matej said he flats a 4bet with qq ak, which means if you have ak you won t make him fold on a 10 high board except when he has ak, and you won t be getting too much value on an ace or k high board, again except he has ak in which case you ll split (not to mention he could be flatting aa and kk also)...

      People with 2% 3bets don t 3bet bluff, it s that simple... Even when they do bluff once every 250 times with a "cool" 89 hand they saw on the internet, make your life easier and just let them have it, or flat even though you are oop i don t see how a 2% 3bet type player can have an edge on you post flop :D
    • 1
    • 2